Kentucky teen and Confederate flag prom dress

[QUOTE=bnorton]
Once they owned a slave they became, by definition, monsters no matter how they treated their slaves. The slave owner who had deep reservations about the institution, and treated his slaves decently is the same as the guy who routinely beat the men and raped the women. Keep in mind that George Washington - George fucking Washington - was a slave owner.

[QUOTE]

Now I see what you’re getting at. Honor among thieves, eh?

Nope–while some slave owners may have treated their slaves w/o terrorizing them, they are still monsters, b/c they bought into a systemic abuse of another race of people-no matter how “kindly” they treated their chattel. Even George Washington (is he supposed to be above reproach?). Even Thomas Jefferson and John Hancock etc–all the Founding Fathers who owned slaves and/or condoned the practice. They were products of their time, but that doesn’t mean that it was OK.

Thank you, King for your excellent summary and point.

I find it interesting that many in the South would pick THAT particular symbol to show “pride”. Not their individual state flags or some regional artifact, but that one symbol that is so hateful and full of shameful memories–it speaks volumes to me about the mindset of the “redneck”. And is wasn’t used much at all, until the end of Jim Crow. Sad state of affairs, IMO.

You imply symbols can only have one meaning. I suppose the little girl with a rainbow sticker on her notebook has her dues to the local GLBT organization up to date. A rainbow surely symbolizes her homosexuality.

And this is something we can agree on.

Indeed we are all products of our times. I’m old enough to have witnesses some very fundamental assumptions be turned on their heads - assumptions about the place of blacks and women in society, assumptions about how to treat the environment, assumptions about the God-endorsed correctness of our culture, country and religion, etc. There is no doubt in my mind that 50, 100, 200 years from now people will look back on you and me and say “How *could * you???” I don’t know what they will be saying it about, but it’ill be something. My guess is that it will have something to do with the fact the we (the generic we) are sitting here in our well heated homes, sipping a freshly brewed cup of coffee (freshly ground beans, of course, none of that instant crap), typing away on our $2000 computers debating the propriety of a fucking prom dress while right outside our windows there are homeless people begging for food. It will then be our turn to be called monsters and compared to rapists.

Please don’t take what I’m going to say next as a snippy cheap shot, but I sincerely hope that you live long enough to watch some of you basic assumptions turned on their heads. It is a sobering, thought provoking and maturing experience.

Your premise: that the presence of a sticker depicting a rainbow, which is a phenomenon that occurs regularly in nature and which has been used symbolically and realistically in art and literature in numerous ways since we have had art and literature, should either be interpreted narrowly as denoting only one of it’s more recent and limited meanings, or that we should assume multiple symbolic meanings for the confederate battle flag, which was created a century and a half ago for a single specific symbolic purpose, as an emblem of insurrection, even though no other interpretations have been suggested, much less demonstrated. I see.

I confess, I hadn’t thought about the confederate banner as a coy signifier of Southern gay pride. Next time I visit Stone Mountain, I’ll keep it in mind.

I think a Confederate Battle Flag is just a little more specific than a rainbow. There’s no dispute that the flag on the dress is intended as a symbol of the Confederacy.

Maybe, but even then what is the Confederacy supposed to symbolize?

What the Confederacy stood for:

I’m a first-generation English immigrant who came to the U.S. when I was a toddler. I’m very proud of my English heritage and our legacy of things such as the Magna Carta, the Anglican Church, and, of course, Winston Churchill. I’m also aware of the atrocities my country has commited, including England’s actions in Ireland, and the way the Cromwell and Anglican church killed Catholics, shut down monasteries, and, in general, tried to wipe out Catholicism in England. I’m also aware that England drove the Jews out of England back in the 1300s.

Now, where I grew up is, basically redneck country, near the mountains. A few years ago, I worked at a manufacturing plant where a security guard who’d been fired for putting a confederate flag on his lunch box used to drive past the plant in a pick up truck, flying a confederate flag which I swear was bigger than the bed of his pick up truck. Someone said earlier in this thread that he(?) thought most people wearing the confederate flag gave it less thought than the folks in this thread put into their posts. To them, it’s a symbol of rebellion against the government, taxes, and everything that stands in the way of the working man and good ol’ boy. It’s about drinking and hanging out with your buddies and having a little fun without having someone get in your face and tell you how it’s wrong to want to do that. It’s about being proud of who you are and where you came from, even though there are a bunch of people telling you you’re never going to get anywhere and you’ll never be rich or famous like the folks on TV, but you’ve got your pride and you’re from good people and you may have gotten beat, but you’ll never quit or lay down and die. Actually, while I’ve been writing this, I’ve been remembering that a friend who’s on his way over used to have a large confederate flag hanging in his office and he still has letters an ancestor of his who served in the Civil War wrote.

That said, I’m not defending this. You see, like I said, I knew folks like the ones who identified with the Confederate side in the Civil War. Their idea of “having a little fun” all too often included making fun of anyone who was different, including the little immigrant girl. There’s a lot in my British heritage I embrace and display freely, especially this time of year. There’s also a lot I’m ashamed of. I would not wear an emblem of the British civil war in public where it could be easily identified because of what was done to Catholics during it and because I’m ashamed of those actions.

I never went to my high school prom. A kid as weird as I was had a better chance of going to the moon, and my schoolmates made very sure I knew that. If I had or if I’d been aware of this girl’s plans, and it sounds like quite a few people were, I would have been nervous around her because of the way I was treated by people who shared her pride. There are people in this world for whom pride in one’s heritage includes denigrating anyone who doesn’t share that heritage and, having been forced out of places by such people, I learned not to try to join their company. In their eyes, which eventually became my eyes, I didn’t deserve to be there.

If I may add one more shallow note from someone who has done her own sewing and even some design work, I hate to say it, but in the photo, the pose she’s striking and the place where the two bars cross the dress does appear to play up her rump and minimize her chest. If that’s what she was going for, fair enough, but it is more symbolic than flattering, and this from someone with no fashion sense!

CJ

What the fuck are you arguing here? That because George Washington led the Colonial Army and helped found America, he must’ve been a great guy? Do you know fuck all about how he treated his slaves? His achievements away from the plantation don’t enter the picture.

Slavery itself is monstrous. How it was practiced by particular individuals is fucking trivia. If the rich slaveowners had reservations about what they were doing, bully for them. It probably didn’t mean shit to the slaves they bought and sold.

This is HILARIOUSLY stupid. If a “left winger” associated all conservatives with flag-wavers, we can guess the reaction. Instead, machetero goes and does exactly that. If all right-wingers go around wearing the rebel flag, fuck the lot of them. Of course, that flag isn’t a right wing thing, it’s a moron thing.

Yet another abuse of the term “political correctness,” too. This is not politically incorrect, it’s racist.

Just for the sake of clarifying, I love the music, people and the land in the South. I’ve enjoyed the hell out of all my trips there. I don’t like the people who go wear the rebel flag as a symbol because it’s not possible (if it’s even desired) to separate that flag from racism and slavery. The Southerners I’m friendly with don’t go for that crap either.

[quote=bnorton]
Nor apparently for you, how few are offended:

[quote]

So what? The symbol is less racist if few people are there to be offended by it? (Also, please make a note of the difference between predominantly and entirely.) This could have an impact on the school as far as it pertains to causing a disturbance, but it doesn’t change the meaning of the act.

This is definitely food for thought.

I’m not defending the slave-holders, because it seems as horrendous to me as it does to everyone else here. But a whole shit-load of people lived in that era, and even if they didn’t have slaves themselves, they socialized and worked with those who did. And somehow most of them tolerated it, or were not as appalled by the fact as we are today. That’s how it was. A few fought against it, but most didn’t.

Either they were all (with the exception of the abolitionists) completely evil—half of an entire nation, evil, or something else was going on there. It’s hard to swallow that so many people back then were craven evil assholes, you know?

With a little imagination I could think of some things that we take for granted that might be considered “monstrous” or “evil” in the future. The gas-guzzling cars we drive, eating animal flesh, using products made in sweat shops, etc. I don’t know for sure that future generations will look down on us with revulsion and horror for these things, but you know what? I think it’s possible.

I’m still boggling over the idea that slavery is a “wart” on the culture. That was no wart, that was a cancer.

It is racist. It doesn’t matter. It’s still speech. She still has first amendment rights. This is an affair under the auspices of the school. The student, according to the old ruling, still has her rights. The KKK can march, and she can wear her dress.

How old do you think I am? Good lord–I don’t know if I should be flattered or pissed off! I am “old”–I am on the wrong side of 40 and just hitting my stride.

I am sure that future gens will look at us and shake their heads over our massive fuel squandering etc. Our treatment of children and animals, our treatment of women as a whole…and many other things as well.

Nobody was oblivious to slavery back then. Damage to the environment is hidden in many ways, as is fuel consumption–that new SUV is bought to stroke an ego, with not thought to it’s impact, to use one example. Those who practiced slavery had to rationalize it constantly–the Negro was inferior, he was not intelligent, he couldn’t learn, whatever. I am not saying that what we are doing is right, I am saying that you couldn’t move for tripping over slaves and all that came with them–but you can “ignore” pollution or dismiss it as “overstating”. I don’t agree with that mindset, but it does exist.

I hope you live long enough to see some of your basic assumptions about basic American history turned over.

It exists with more things than fuel consumption—killing and eating animals, for instance. People rationalize that away, even though they know what it is they are eating, and even though many of them say that they “love” animals.

No, I’m not trying to start a hijack about animal rights, or make any case for or against the eating of animal flesh. But I’d say that many people do their fair share of “rationalization” in today’s world. All the reasons one might give for eating animals (for instance) might be considered “constant rationalization,” (since most people eat meat every day) and one that perhaps might be completely incomprehensible and inexcusable to future generations. Do you know for sure that it will not?

This is true, in the case of this girl she did intend her dress to be Confederate themed. However, you cannot extrapolate that to mean that at all times, the naval jack is representative of a mindset of the Confederacy and their main goals, which are undeniable and unfortunate.

If she is proud of a hertige of people that lost a war faught over a lost case, so be it. Let her wear the dress. It may very well be her last time to express herself. She’ll likely be married and having babies, maybe even pursuing a carrer as a cashier or a waitress, soon enough.

Wrapping ourselves in what has become a symbol of slavery is not a way to get over it.

If the symbol is blatantly racist, but not causing a disturbance, the First Amendment requires that the girl be permitted to display it.