Kicking a "roommate" out...

Factual Questions
61

TonyF IANAL, but what little I know about eviction tells me that it’s never an easy option. I was really glad to see a couple of lawyers posting (and I hope you understood them better than I did…). From what I’ve seen, your requests have been resonable. (My last rent agreement was similar, but we had an auction for the big room.) Having had my share of horrible roommates, I say get rid of her, hurt feelings on her cousins part or no. I think this will be like pulling off a band-aid: you either get it over with or it will be really long and drawn out and may hurt feelings worse in the end. I’ve noticed that the cousin doesn’t want to get involved. Does that mean that he does not want to deal with her either? What are you going to do if she does up and leave? Will the four of you split the bill? Do you have another friend to bring in? If either of the cases, I would seriously consider giving her one more chance at the negotiations, then make things clear: if she does not agree with the rest of the renters she should start looking for a new place. I disagree with Peter Morris. He may have a soft-spot for underdogs like I do, but one person who has agreed to nothing with a group of people has no reason to expect them to bow to her wishes. I would ask Peter if it is fair for her to pay 100$ a month because her cousin gave her a favorable sublease when rent for the unit is $2000 a month. Just because the cousin (who now takes no part in the discussion) promised one thing, that is no reason for you to honor it.

-JAGeek

62

Just letting you all know, the two rooms are meant for TonyF and I to share. We will each take a room and pay for it, but use one for a bedroom and another as an office. He is not paying for one room but taking two rooms - we will be sharing and splitting the cost.

And we did the math. Two of our rooms equal to her room, walk-in closet and her bathroom. Yet she will not pay what she should be paying ($500). We told her that we won’t charge her for her own bathroom which we will not be allowed to use. We are charging her for the master bedroom and her walk-in closet (which is approximately one and a half of our rooms).

Also, we want her to move out since she is proving to be such a hassle to talk to and compromise with. All of the housemates on the lease agree to make up for the difference.

It’s not as if we’re saying “it’s our way or the highway”. We asked her if we could all compromise on the rent because she should be paying $500. We said that $400 seemed fair because she is essentially taking up the same space as two of our rooms, but she won’t be paying double what we’re paying. She said no, she won’t pay more. Period. She will not move to a smaller room. Period. She will not move out. Period.

When we told her that square feet is the most reasonable way to split the rent, and that if she will not pay, she is free to leave, she said she will discuss it with her parents but told us that they will most likely not pay more. Bad for us. Then she got up and left.

That was our first meeting with the girl. No compromise. She sat down and dictated to us what will happen - she will not pay more. In fact, because W has been there so long, management gave us a decrease in rent. She told us she expected a part of that decrease as well. Period.

It’s a little frustrating at this point.

63

Well, I can see if she needs to get her parents’ input on rent decisions if they’re the ones footing the bill.

If her parents say they won’t pay more, then it’s bad for her.

[qutoe]That was our first meeting with the girl. No compromise. She sat down and dictated to us what will happen - she will not pay more.
[/quote]

Politely indicate to her the location of the exit door.

Some places do that for long-term tenants. She’s evidently not one of their tenants.

Politely ask her to indicate where on the previous leases her name appears.

Oh, I hear you. Some roomies are enough to make the Earth tremble just because it’s cursed with their presence.

64

I’ve added choice numbers as superscripts.

Choosing between choices 1 and 2 are the only way for her to prevent choice 3. Is she really that clueless?

65

The thing is, TonyF and I will be sharing part of that decrease, so we can’t use that against her. But we don’t want to give her any of that decrease because why should we let her pay less rent than she is now when she won’t try to work with us? Why should we share that decrease of rent with someone who isn’t on the lease, who dictates how things are going to be, who steals internet, who tells other people how to live their lives (“you should do your dishes right now”), who won’t try to compromise with people who just want to pay their fair share of rent. She doesn’t understand this. She said that she lives there, she gets some of decrease and she won’t pay more because we’re all ganging up on her and being unfair.

You get what you pay for, that’s what I believe. If you have the master bedroom, your own walk-in closet and your own bathroom, you should pay more than someone with a smaller room, a regular closet and who has to share the smaller bathroom with 4 other people. She doesn’t understand this. Is it really that hard to understand???

66

Sorry - I didn’t make this clear. We’ll be paying for both rooms ourselves. We could use two rooms because we have a lot of personal stuff - bed, dressers, etc - and office/school stuff - desks, computer stuff. The other roommates are ok with this - the space and rent needed to be filled anyhow.

Since we’ll be taking up so much room, I thought it might be good to leave the room with the office/school stuff somewhat open for people to use. I have a laser printer that has been insanely useful over the school year, and I’ve got an extra computer sitting around, so I thought I’d share - for free. (The room also houses the circuit breaker, which is another reason why I want to have it open.)

That’s an option, but money isn’t exactly the issue here.

And I’ll probably end up doing my homework in my bed, in front of the TV, surrounded by the decaying boxes of tv dinners long since consumed…

That’s what I’m saying :slight_smile: As it turns out, the combined area of our two rooms is still less than the area of her room, bathroom, and walk-in closet. Yet, under her demands, we’d be paying something like $130 more than her.

That’s $130 extra for us to pay for less room and the privilege of sharing the bathroom among four people. If she were already on the lease, I supposed we’d have to take that price or go on… but that isn’t the case.

The price we’re asking to pay for the two rooms, based on area, would indeed be less than what she’s dictating we will be paying - but would still be more than her rent (by $90).

I agree completely (though I probably have less sympathy). I don’t want to throw all of her belongings onto the lawn come 12:01 am on Sept. 1st or anything like that. Really, even if she refuses to negotiate further, I’m willing to let her stay a little longer so she can find a place and move.

I’m fine with covering her rent, a burden though it may be. W will probably take over the master bedroom in addition to the small room she’s currently in. We’ll have to renegotiate the rent again… but it will be a painless process with W: she’s working her way through school, is very kind and generous, and she’s willing to work things out.

67

Three quick points:

  1. In my posting above, “choosing between choices 1 and 2” should take the singular form of the verb.

  2. If I had a roomie who stole from me, on the lease or not, I’d do what I could legally to get said roomie gone.

  3. If you do keep the theif (er, alleged thief) around, then she should get a proportionate share of the decrease in rent.

I’d still not have the thief in my midst.

68

Any slight reservations I may have had that the situation might be unfair was cleared up by your last post. You really don’t want this person as your roommate. It sounds like you’re asking a reasonable price for the rooms (where the hell were this ginormous $400 rooms when I was in college? I paid at least $400 for a normal-sized room.)

Frankly, I just don’t understand what the girl wants. She’s got a room the size of two rooms, giant closet, and private bathroom. I’d say the private bathroom alone is worth at least an additional $50 per month.

Kick her to the curb. You’re clearly in the right.

69

See, that’s why we wanted to live with W when she approached us. Because of the girl’s cousin, we were able to secure low-income housing. Since W is supporting herself, we are able to stay there for such cheap rent.

That and living with nice, SANE PEOPLE (W and her boyfriend) are the only reasons we aren’t asking out of the new lease and finding our own place. Cheap rent is too damn sexy to pass up!

The plot thickens! The new girl just called us, and told us she has a few proposals for us. She wants to meet on X and Y day between this and that time and those are the only times she can meet with us. Ah when you think things might work, she throws in “I will only meet during these times, take it or leave it”. I’m starting to find her curiously amusing just for her audacity.

70

Again, above post was from me. TonyF forgot to log off on my laptop -_-

71

Wow. She sounds like a genuine PITA. Good luck.

72

Jesus cheeses. I’ve been restraining myself so far, but …

“Take it or leave it.” There’s your chance. Leave it.

Kick. The. Bitch. Out. Now.

What are the chances that any random roommate you get to replace her will be worse? I’d say vanishingly small, especially since you’d be setting the terms up front.

:: Checks to see if this is the Pit ::
:: Looks within himself to see why this strangers problem is getting him so worked up::

I’m thinking this girl didn’t get very good grades in “playing well with others” or may have been one of the earlies indigo children. Good luck.

73

It’s not his call, I suspect…it’s W’s call. And W doesn’t want to kick her out because of the friendship with the PITA’s cousin.

So, here are your options TonyF: if W is unwilling to kick the girl out, you can either accept one of her new proposals or look into getting out of the lease and walking. I advise you to do the latter.

74

Thanks. Unfortunately when it comes to appartments, most people tend to put their own personal needs ahead of wisdom. What’s “fair” usually “what’s fair for me so I can get what I want”.

There is also a tendency for some people to think it is “their” appartment (instead of “our”) and that the other residents are essentially there to support them. The person who was originally there thinks it’s their place while the three new people think the legacy tenant is a pain in the ass and should move out. EVERYONE has the same rights in the appartment unless you specifically agree otherwise. If you can have guests, they can have guests. If you can claim exclusive rights to common areas for special occassions, THEY can claim exclusive rights to common areas for special occassions.

Well, not that you could legally do this anyway. One, you are not the landlord and two, even if you were, you can’t evict someone without a court order. Not to mention that you would likely find yourself financially responsible for any damages.
My understanding is that the lease has ended and you are looking to sign a new lease? You folks need to keep a couple things in mind. The lease is not a contract between the tenants and each other. It’s a contract between the tenants and the landlord. mazinger_z covered pretty much everything I want to say, but let me just emphasize that YOU have no legal right to kick anyone out of the appartment.

75

msmith: But what about someone who’s possibly not even legally there? You mention the lease as a contract. At the moment, the woman in question is not on the lease. In other words: unauthorized tenant.

Come to think of it, couldn’t all of them get kicked out of the place for having her there now?

76

I express no opinion about the legal issues raised in this thread, other than to say that I’m pleased that our Dopers plan to consult an attorney, who will be able to consider all the facts and relevant law to advise them about the best course forward.

It occurs to me that the players in this little drama are likely in their late teens or early twenties. I am posting an observation here, in the event that it will assist our Dopers in resolving this matter.

It has been my experience that some people in that age range have not yet learned how to put themselves in other people’s shoes. More specifically, young people do not understand that their personal motiviations may be different from the motivations of those around them, and in particular, those with whom they intend to negotiate.

Consequently, the tactics such a person chooses for negotiation are those that would be the most effective when used on that person. (Anyone read Tom Jones?) In short, and assuming that what has been posted in this thread is objectively, reasonably true (an assumption that is generally dangerous to make), note that our Dopers have attempted reason and logic, while The Girl has attempted appeals to emotion and fairness. Both sides would be well-advised to consider switching tactics.

77

IANAL, but you need to understand the legal difference between “unauthorized tenant” and “tresspasser”. A tresspasser can be “kicked” out". You can call the cops and have them removed. To kick out an unauthorized tenant (an illegal sublet, someone living in their appartment after the lease expires but paying rent, someone who breaks their lease by not paying rent) the landlord has to go through the eviction courts - a time consuming process.

You can’t just call the cops on them. The cops will show up, she shows a letter addressed to her or a drivers license with the appartments address or any other proof of residence and they will tell you “Can’t help you. Take it up with the landlord”.

So to answer your question, “yes” they can get kicked out, but the kicking out will take the form of a number of court hearings and whatnot over some period of time before the landlord shows up with the cops.

“isn’t that really just a nice way of saying she is an idiot?”
-Dilbert

78

Nope. It’s a nice way of saying that I suspect that there’s a lot more to this story than we’re hearing, considering how the characters are being portrayed. Our Dopers apparently perceive that The Girl’s arguments depend on emotion and equity for their force, while their own arguments are coldly logical and rational (and therefore superior). My radar is going off, particularly in light of the passionate posts here. Suffice it to say that I believe the equities are likely about equal in this situation, but, regardless, they have already decided on the solution and are merely seeking affirmation for a decision already made.

I’d have no problem taking The Girl’s side in this argument, because I suspect that her tale would have few points of concurrence with the version we’ve gotten here. The lesson that every person ought to learn young is that things are rarely at polar positions; the world is full of shades of grey. Or gray, depending on your preference.

79

Indeed, there may be… but she’s not telling us. What I’ve described is the entirety of our contact with the girl. I’d love to hear her circumstances so I could better guage who is getting the shorter end of the stick here, but all I’ve gotten is a brick wall - so I have to use other judgements, like how much she’s paying for her area versus how much we are.

I assure you, the events portrayed are accurate and the conversation described above is as true to the dialog and tone as I can remember and can write. I’m doing my best not to stack the cards.

Not quite; her arguments so far depend on precendence - “this is how it was, so this is how it should be.” In general, this tactic is employed when justifying an unfair situation.

She could work me like putty if she came at us with “but I can’t afford it” or “I’m supporting myself” or “my parents and I are on a tight budget” or something that would make me want to sympathize with her.

And, sorry, I think that in a case strictly of cold, rational logic versus an appeal to precedence, the logic wins. If the tables were turned, I’d be prepared to bite the bullet and pay more, or move to a smaller room, or move out.

In fact, we are going by cold hard logic in the current apartment; Penchan and I are paying about half of the rent of the entire apartment - despite that we are sharing one room - because that’s how the price breaks down against the area we use.

We could have appealed to emotion - Penchan’s parents are scraping by and I’m supporting myself entirely. Coupled with the fact that one of the other roomates is quite comfortable, it had some reasoning to it - but it didn’t make sense to impose a higher price when they were paying for every inch they were using and no less. Even if the roommate could pay the entire rent with ease.

No, not really… again, I don’t want to have her removed; this is more of a final option. It’s a sticky process and I don’t want any more people who don’t like me - and I wouldn’t want to be in her shoes and face eviction. But if she’s going to sit there like a rock and dictate the terms - or more - then I want to have removing her as an option.

It’s nice to know that I have some moral support here, but I’m not going to use that to screw her over.

Perhaps! And I, like you, am waiting to hear her story. But, again, her entire story so far is:

My cousin said I could stay in the master bedroom for $x.
I am currently staying in the master bedroom for $x.
I will continue staying in the master bedroom for $x, no concessions.

I’m quite mindful of other people’s positions, I think. Maybe she is in the same situation we’re in - but she’s not telling us about it, so I can’t sympathize with her.

I want to, though. So I hope she won’t be on the offensive come Wednesday (especially since we’re taking time out to meet when it’s convenient for her).

80

I understand the difference. I’m sorry if I was not clear that “can’t they all be kicked out” implied that the landlord would be chucking them all out without notice. The case I mentioned upthread had the landlord going through the entire legal process to evict the individuals who had quite a few people sharing their apartment but not on the lease.

I’m still unclear (perhaps I missed it being posted here) as to if the woman in question in the OP is paying rent to the landlord or to one of the other tenants in the apartment in question.