Not really. Some Christians see the practice of pledging allegiance to the flag as comparable to worshipping an idol, and others believe that taking oaths violates something in the Bible. Kids who fail to participate are harming nobody, so why should they be forced to violate the principles of their religion?
Please don’t put words in my posts. I’ve never suggested that the children had to speak a pledge or take an oath. I’ve merely suggested that requiring that they stand is not at all unreasonable.
Requiring that students stand at a particular time is in no rational way comparable to requring that a child eat pork.
Oops! This is what happens when you combine a night out at the bars with righteous indignation. Won’t happen again! 
My utmost apologies for the name calling.
Actually, it is. Especially if the child’s religion considers it a sin to perform any act of obeisance towards a national symbol.
Bear_Nenno:
Cite? According to the ACLU (link):
TheMoonGazer really doesen’t know what hes talking about. Refusing to stand? Last year no one stood (though the first day some people stood and 2 people said it) and my teacher said show some respect about twice. He then gave up and occasionally stood himself. This year the school I go to doesen’t recite the pledge of allegiance. No moment of silence either. Hell theres not even a intercom system I think. We go to school and (horror of horrors) we have to start learning instead of that other stuff. Well ok we don’t have to start learning, but we do have to play counterstrike:)
Also schools can search anything on school grounds. If he had even been to a school recently there are big signs on the doors saying “schools can search anything on school grounds”
I stand corrected if there are in fact religions that consider a bodily act of obedience toward a national symbol a sin.
I suspect though that the OP probably refers to the majority of instances whereby refusal to merely stand is not backed by specific religious decree…rather, an act of disrespect or insubordination.
Should parents be allowed to “force” their kids to say the Pledge?
(My source: my professor from Russia, who is a good friend of Dr. Sergei Khrushchev, son of Nikita…hmmm…)
Um, no, Khrushchev was drunk off his ass when he said it.
(My source: my professor from Russia, who is a good friend of Dr. Sergei Khrushchev, son of Nikita…hmmm…)
Please! Russia wasn’t nearly as big a threat to us, and we weren’t totally innocent, either. Look at some of the crap the US has pulled in Central and South America.
Please! You make these generalizations without backing them up. Can we have some sources for this horror that the US is in? Trust me, schools do have discipline. Quit taking a few extreme examples. Again-SITE YOUR SOURCES!!!
I’m challenging you to come up with PROOF of what you speak. Not just what you say-I want sources sited.
As for your statements on Vietnam-read In Retrospect by Robert S. McNamara. YOu DO know who he is, don’t you?
I’m not a patriot. I don’t like the pledge. I haven’t said it since at least the beginning of last year, when I started going to public school. I was never comfortable with the idea of pledging alleigance(sp) even at a very young age, because i knew i didn’t completely understand the pledge. I still said it, though, cause I didn’t have the guts not to. I stand out of respect for the flag, but I don’t say it, because I don’t submit. I may stop standing, now that I know morons like some of you actually live in this country.
[Moderator Hat: ON]
Joff-Rey! said:
Out of line, Joff-Rey. You want to insult other users, go to the Pit. Don’t do it here.
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator
[Moderator Hat: OFF]
ok. first id just like to say that EVERY PERSON regardless of age has all the civil rights that are guaranteed in the constitution. the constitution does not state ANYWHERE that children dont have their rights until age 18 or anything of the sort. sure the kids have limits on certain things but they still have the right to say any thing or do anything they want, as long as it doesnt disrupt others and follows the rules of the govt. and the school they are in. im sick and tired of hearing people say oh they are just children what do they know? if you go into any school (even an elementary one) you will find that many of the children there know more than you think. and you want to know another surprising fact? they are TRUTHFUL AND HONEST! especially the little ones. dont ask me to cite any examples, all i know is what i have seen in my experience in the school system itself and around kids. as i recall, in my 5th grade year there was a little girl who never stood up for the pledge or said it because it was agianst her beliefs, although under what you are saying moongazer is that she should have been sent to the principals office and be hit. now that would be a violation of her civil right wouldnt it? after all she does have the right to practice a religion and the state’s not supposed to interfere with her religion, after all what she did wasnt hurting others.
when i was a child, in kindergarten my teacher taught us how to say the pledge and what it ment. now i know things might have changed over the years, but i think that teachers still tell their students what they are saying.
as for dress codes being abused, or just not being carried out at all:in my highschool we have many restrictions on our clothing. we are not allowed to have anything written on it like budwiser etc. also, girls are not allowed to wear skimpy clothing, and guys can not show their boxers. oh yeah, and everyone has to wear shirts, shorts and shoes. whats the penalty if you dont? you go to the principal’s office and they give you detention, suspend you or give you something like saturday school. another thing about clothing, as far as phys ed; kids who do not use proper dress in class for the activity going on are docked in their grade because of it.
another thing, in school, disiplinary action is always taken if a child does not cooperate with the teacher, or is disruptive in any way. no maybe they can’t use those paddles like they used to, but believe me, what they do is just as bad (and i might add it goes on your record) and it doesnt give you physical bruises.
as for the remarks about locker searches etc, drug dogs come in about once a month or so (depending on the school) to sniff the lockers and any teacher or administrative person can come and look at your locker if they have probable cause to do so.
children who refuse to do work are disiplined, or they are sent to a lower level. the smarter and hardworking kids are in higher classes, so they arent disturbed by kids who goof off (although, lower classes arent just for those lazy kids, they are also for those handicaped ones too) and yeah they may be passed on from grade to grade and graduate, but they do work to graduate, or they get held back, no matter what the level they are in. and the kids that are lazy and pass all their classes dont graduate with the same honors etc that the kids who really work do. so guess what? this means that the teachers arent just passing the kids because the parents might come after them! the kids actually HAVE to learn to pass the grade. (strange huh?)
and another funny thing about our horrible school system is that we have a SOCIAL STUDIES CLASS. (that means we learn about american history as well as world history and the government that rules us!) so just about every child that has been through elementary school knows SOMETHING about america. and every kid in high school knows about american history. that means they know about the gulf war, ww1 and ww2, the french and indian war, the revolutionary war (shall i go on?) oh yeah and they also know about the world wars (that is when your in 11th grade) so dont worry, kids dont grow up now not knowing what their forfathers did for them, believe me! and even though there are alot of bad kids, there are alot of good ones too. and another thing thats probably really surprising to you is that we learn about the constitution and civil rights and all that good stuff. and some where along the way someone figured out that hey! kids have rights too, after all it doesnt say anywhere that kids are exempt from the bill of rights.
this thread has gone downward from the beginning. it has become a thread where you are debating if kids have the right to anything whatsoever. but if the system is so wrong then why is it that it works? (and believe me, if people come out of schools smarter than they were when they went in, i think it works at least a little bit.) some of the statements in this thread are outrageous (like kids have no rights at all, or kids should be taken to the principals office and beaten) the very people who went through the old school system are devising these new and better (in my opinion) laws that protect the children (you know those little kids who are going to choose what happens to you some day) so these schools cant be as horrid as you say they are.
now, with the american flag thing. its just a flag. i know it represents something more powerful than that but for God’s sake ITS A FLAG! the pledge is something that some people dont like to do (and yes kids are people too) and they shouldnt be punished for that belief. people who burn the flag arent burning those people who served for us, they are burning a piece of cloth as a symbol, just like that flag is a symbol. many many people respect the people who served for their country, even those who do not stand to say the pledge. i personally dont say the pledge, but every time i see that flag i think about all those people who died so i could choose all the things i do. when i hear something about the military, i automatically think of those who served. now i know in your little world people may not do that, but in this vast world, many people (and that does include kids) do hold a place in their hearts for the people who served and for what our country is. sure they may not say the pledge, but who really cares?
personally i think anyone who burns a flag to protest something that is wrong (for example segregation) is more patriotic than someone who beats that person up because they burned a piece of cloth. maybe the kids who dont stand up for the pledge or dont say it arent protesting something, but they are practicing what they are allowed to do, and you just seem to be undermining what you “say” you believe in. so im my eyes, they are and will be more patriotic than you.
any valid questions or comments? id be happy to address them.
Yeah…comment:
Paragraph breaks…makes for easier reading…
[quote]
Should parents be allowed to “force” their kids to say the Pledge?*
Who is in charge of the kid? The parents or the government? If the parents choose to force the child to say the pledge, then they have the right to do so, just as they have the right to force a kid to attend church. Just like forcing the kid to eat his green beans, go to bed on time, take a bath, or stop smacking his sister around.
What is this ‘should parents be allowed’ garbage? A child is the charge of his or her parents, completely under their authority, until at least 16 years of age, providing the parents do not endanger the physical well being of said child. My Pa would have not been happy with me if I refused to stand for the Pledge, especially if I refused because of no good reason, like the rest of the class just choosing not to do it because they didn’t feel like it.
BTW, frequently in the news, lawsuits show up where parents are suing schools and cops for ‘illegally’ searching their lockers. As for pee tests, because of a problem with school athletes taking illegal drugs and hormones to improve their game, one school required drug tests before games. A student refused. He was booted off of the team. His folks sued the school because he claimed he had the right to refuse the test. Well, the rules were, if you play, you pee. He knew that going in. The rules covered everyone, so by his refusing, he violated them, ignored the reason why they were implemented in the first place and involved not only his folks but the school in a costly law case.
[quote]
im sick and tired of hearing people say oh they are just children what do they know? if you go into any school (even an elementary one) you will find that many of the children there know more than you think. and you want to know another surprising fact? they are TRUTHFUL AND HONEST! especially the little ones.*
Blind leading the blind here.
It has been proven, time and time again, that regardless of the amount of knowledge a child has, they do not have the maturity to handle life situations not to make good value judgments until they are at least 16 years of age.
Look at the Statutory Rape laws. That means a kid below a certain age might enjoy sex, but does not have the maturity not wisdom to know when they are being suckered into the act. A child below the age of 17 is not legally liable for any contract he or she enters into, because he or she has not the life skills nor maturity to grasp all of the ramifications of doing so. A child below a certain age may not legally posses ownership of an automobile not obtain a license to drive one below a certain age, for the same reasons.
Get the picture yet? A child cannot be tried as an adult for many crimes because it is felt that he or she does not understand the full impact or ramifications of said crime before or after doing it. They have the smarts, but not the maturity to put them to use. Some kids I know today are doing math that I can’t even grasp, but don’t have the smarts to realize that skateboarding out into traffic is deadly because a 3000 pound car does not stop on a dime.
Kids will lie. It’s been proven and with no reason to do so. After the hysteria of the late 80s and 90s of molestation and child abuse, when adults were being tossed in the clink by the score on the words of kids, a few shrinks decided to check out the reliability of kids. They took kids from good homes, within a certain age group, knowing they had not been molested in any way and gave them a sexless, faceless cloth doll and asked them questions, which gradually led up to inappropriate sexual touching. Nearly 50% said they had been touched inappropriately, even demonstrating on the doll. A percentage even went into greater detail, indicating that they had been more than just touched.
The conclusion was that the kids either lied for no reason at all or they lied, picking up on what they thought the researcher wanted them to say.
My kids have lied about teachers, activities, situations and such for no apparent reason. All kids do. Mostly, they’ve exaggerated. Kids do not think like little adults. Kids, it has been proven, do not perceive the world as we do.
Look at most kids when they get a major crush for the first time. They about go nuts. Look at them when they hit puberty and are prone to depression, flighty emotions, the testing of authority, and the struggle for independence yet still wanting Mom and Pop to protect them.
Guys become real pain in the butts then and girls get weird. Those mature adults know this and expect it, which is why a child does not have many rights until he or she is able to maturely consider their options. Even at 21, the maturity is sketchy, with most bad emotional decisions involving deaths or injury resulting from then to 30.
Why do you think the favorite cry of the 60s hippies was ‘don’t trust anyone over 30’? Because by 30, a human is no longer governed by his or her hormones and has gained the majority of his or her emotional maturity by then.
Parents stopped forcing kids to have respect, to realize that painful punishment can follow disobedience and actively encouraged the informational media to inform them that they really will not get into much trouble no matter what they do. In fact, they can easily ruin an adult’s life by a little, bitty lie.
Currently, 61% of the parents now say they spank their children. Time outs and crap are not sufficient alone.
By allowing the kids something as seemingly innocent as refusing to stand for the pledge, parents and adult leaders are teaching them that they can disobey whatever rules they choose.
My 10 year old came home the other day, steamed up and appalled that a teacher had grabbed a disruptive student by the arm and forced him to sit down and pay attention in class. According to her, no teacher was allowed to touch a kid in any way. It was against the law. She felt the teacher should be punished. It did not matter that the child had refused to listen to the teacher’s previous efforts to get him too pay attention, what mattered is that she grabbed the kid.
Now, where the h**l did she get this information? Not from me. Nor from her mother. I tried to point out to her that it was just fine for the teacher to grab a kid, but not smack him (even though, I figure teachers should be allowed to whack some of the little buggers) but she was firmly convinced that the teacher was wrong. She was convinced that the cops should arrest the teacher.
She might have gotten this from her Mom (we’re divorced), but I seriously doubt it. The lady is a class A B***h, but not stupid and, like me, believes in spanking.
So, that leaves TV, and the school, which is big on letting kids know their ‘rights’.
So, now kids know they can’t be punished, so why follow the rules. They’re kids. Children, who are still developing their life skills and who often like to live in fantasy worlds where Pokimon is king, Barbi rules, blast’em up video games are better than going outside to play and a key chain flashlight the size of your thumb and brightly colored is a thing to treasure.
Adults instill the rules and enforce them. A kid who refuses to stand for the pledge is probably doing this because he wants to get attention, look cool, giving into peer pressure, feeling cranky or has managed to get one side of the historical picture without the rest. Since the adult cannot force him or her to stand, then, the adult cannot force him or her to do anything, so why follow rules?
Which is probably why our schools suck so badly because who can teach a kid who finds no reason to listen? It is also in direct correlation to the increase in kid crime. Why follow laws if they don’t want to, especially since even the cops can’t do much. Well, they can sue the parents for the actions of the child, but if the parent gets caught using physical discipline, then the parent might go to jail, because other adults have decided that kids have rights far beyond the normal expectation.
This kind of forms a never ending loop.
Those of you out there who take great delight in pointing out the failure of America need to take a real good look at all of the good it has done, which outweighs the bad, ranging from stopping wars to rebuilding nations, to sharing technology and pouring millions of tons of medical supplies, food, farming machinery and educational materials to a large portion of the world at no charge.
If you can’t take pride in your nation, then perhaps you should not stay here to enjoy the benefits. Move to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, the UK, Australia and have a ball.
My kids say the pledge and they know what it means. If you have a religious problem with it, that is acceptable, but not very many do.
Standing for the is a school rule. If you defy the rule, you get punished, just like if you defy the rule for not wearing racially obnoxious clothing, not carrying weapons on school grounds, not destroying school property, and not smoking in the bathrooms.
Get it?
Or is the concept too great for any bleeding heart liberals here?
First of all- Moon, it makes for easier reading if you cap your quotes.
**
I think you’re comparing apples and oranges here. Patriotism can be instilled in a child, yes, but do you really think that the pledge is the best way? Besides, how do you “force” a kid to say the pledge? The only time it is generally said in a kid’s everyday life is in the classroom. Since we’ve already established that you are not present in the classroom, how can you possibly be “forcing” your kid to do it?
Come on, now. All I have to do is look out my window to know how beautiful America is. I don’t need to say words without meaning.
I didn’t say the pledge because I don’t believe that the nation has liberty and justice for all. For me, that’s a very good reason. You disagree? Please point out how that phrase is true, and then I might say it.
And this is a problem because?
When was this? The Supreme Court declared that drug tests for athletes were acceptable because of the inherent dangers of athletics. If you’re citing a case before this decision, then it’s not a good example.
So you’re saying that the people should not challenge laws that they find unfair or unjust? Challenging laws that are so has long been an American tradition. Imagine if no laws were challenged- do you want to be ruled by the dictates of several hundred years ago?
What was that, a 20/20 episode? I remember watching it years ago.
Anyway. You want to talk about impressionability? It boils down to this- to a large extent, children will tell adults what they want to hear. Most of the fault is not in the child, but in the overzealous investigator or the adult with an agenda.
Incidentally, the vast majority of abuse cases are never reported, and most are done by family members.
Now what does this have to do with saying the pledge?
Beg to differ- have you read some of the sex threads here? There’s a lot of over 30 people dictated by hormones. Don’t take my word for it- walk into a singles bar.
No. Prove to me- give me even one anecdote- that says that not saying the pledge makes one a rebel.
I’m just remembering back to my high school, where there were four of us in my class who didn’t say it. For the record, the group was all in the top ten and included the valdictorian and salutatorian. One of us is at MIT, one of us is in an Ivy League school, and the remaining two got full rides into an Honors program.
At my high school, you’d be hard pressed to find a group who was higher regarded. Yep, we were thugs of the highest degree.
She’s ten. You know what kids are warned about? Being touched inappropriately. She might have never seen a teacher act that way before- it’s oftentimes drilled into little kids that any touch not by a parent can be bad.
I love America. I think it’s a great nation. However, just because I criticize it doesn’t mean that I should pack up and go.
Change comes from within the system, remember.
Really? Or do they know what you think it means?
Funny, I’m familiar with the rules in five school districts in Delaware, and they all say to “stand if you wish”. It’s kind of like taking your hat off when the anthem is playing- it’s not a rule, per se, but a social custom.
**
Do everyone a favor and don’t resort to mindless and inaccurate cheap shots if you’re interested in genuine debate. That stuff isn’t going to hack it here.
If you happen to live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, email me your address (terata2@usa.net) and I’ll come wipe my ass with the flag right in front of you, and we can see who ends up hurt.
Like I said before, I did already. Unfortunately, that’s not an option for most of the people forced to share their country with you. I guess I just got lucky.
This is my biggest beef with your posting thus far, **TheMoonGazer *. You mix several essentially unrelated issues and treat them * as if they were all the same thing. As one of those bleeding heart liberals you dispise so much, I’d have to agree with you that kids shouldn’t be wearing racially obnoxious clothing or carrying weapons on school grounds, etc., and that it’s absolutely essential for teachers to have the ability to back up their authority. Unfortunately, if I understand your OP correctly, this thread has little or nothing to do with any of these questions.
You’ve chosen an ideologically-charged issue and are trying to use it as an example of a broader problem. For most people, standing for the Pledge of Allegiance isn’t just a matter of “following school rules.” It’s a political statement, often coercively forced on the very children you feel aren’t capable of making such important decisions. You know this damn well yourself, as you’ve pointed out in previous posts, and claiming now that standing for the PoA is just a matter of “following school rules” is downright disingenuous of you.
Not allowing children to carry weapons on school grounds (or even off them) is simply a matter of public safety. Forcing children to recite the Pledge is a poor attempt at brainwashing, and once again, hardly the mark of a truly free society. And as andygirl points out (a point I agree with totally), the Pledge is a pile ideological horse rubbish with no connection to what living in America is really like – a point your posts make amply clear.
TheMoonGazer said:
So you’re admitting to being under 16? After all, you have shown that you are unable to make value judgments (such as believing it is acceptable to use physical violence to enforce your distorted view of reality).
Krispy Original said:
And if that was the greatest extent of “disrespect or insubordination” a student undertook, I think most teachers would be thrilled.
…so that makes it OK? I’ll try that logic the next time I get a speeding ticket…“but officer, at least I didn’t rob a bank!..aren’t you thrilled that I only broke a minor law?..thrilled enough to overlook my transgression right?”
Yeah right.
All I can say is…Spiritus Mundi for President!!!