Andygirl: I disagree with your assertion about the United States not haing justice for all. IMHO, justice is a process. This land has the process to rectify the errors which, I believe, you’re referring to with that statement. Everyone can avail themselves of that process.
Regarding drug tests for school sports: Those tests are for those who participate in scholastic athletic teams. It is not mandatory to join the club. It is, however, illegal to discriminate against someone who wishes to join the club on the basis of race, gender, etc.
Regarding the Supreme Court Justices: Judges aren’t representatives.
The Veterans who have posted in this thread have supported the freedom of the child not to participate in the saying of the Pledge of Allegiance, to include the freedom not to be forced to stand up to honor it.
You have made a big deal about how important the Pledge of Allegiance is to Veterans, yet you have only referred to the service of others and not to yours.
At least one Veteran, I, want to know in which branch of the Armed Forces you served and for how long.
My bet is on either (a) you wanted to serve but were found unfit, or (b) you never attempted to serve.
TheMoonGazer: The raison d’etre of the Straight Dope is fighting ignorance. You have displayed extreme ignorance in message after message (e.g., wrongly believing you have the “right” to physically assult someone who freely expresses a view with which you disagree). Each of your messages has been disassembled, carefully examined, and refuted, usually sentence-by-sentence, often many times by many respondents.
And yet you keep coming back with the same ridiculous assertions, even after they’ve been shown to be hollow and ill-founded. I can’t tell if this is due to an inability to read and comprehend the responses to your so-called arguments, which makes any attempt to speak rationally to you a fruitless gesture, or if you are exhibiting sheer blind stubborness. Whichever it is, I can only conclude that this is a hopeless debate, because you have shown yourself to be utterly unreachable.
Ignorance is not a sin. Deliberate and willful ignorance in the face of overwhelming facts to the contrary, though – that is one of the worst sins any thinking person can commit. Again, I’m uninterested in the basis for this behavior, whether it’s a display of bloody-minded contrariness or a simple lack of intelligence. In my opinion it puts you in the “troll” box – and I’ve already doled out my monthly quota of Troll Chow. I leave you to your ignorance not because you’ve won, but because you’re sitting in a corner with your fingers in your ears going “naah, naah, naah.” Pathetic.
Oh, but one last comment. You keep saying things like, “If you don’t love this country, move to Sweden or somewhere.” This would be more accurately expressed as follows: If you, TheMoonGazer, don’t like living in a country whose citizens have the right of free expression, then maybe you should move to a repressive state like Singapore where expressing anything other than blind nationalism is a crime.
Until you can demonstrate you’ve actually read (and understand) the Constitution you say you’re defending, I have no interest in continuing to chip away at the concrete bunker of your ignorance. So goodbye, and thanks for increasing my cynicism in the notion that the people of this country have made any sort of social and ethical progress in the last two hundred years.
IMO, the public schools have the responsibility to teach, not to indoctrinate. If little Johnny becomes a patriotic American who votes his conscience because he fully understood the various political systems on the planet and made a free choice, that’s good.
If he becomes *what he thinks * is a patriotic American because he was forced to participate in a mindless ritual every day of his education, that’s bad.
Moon…the use of the term “'Nam” is, by military etiquette, reserved for those who were there. For those of us whose service did not take us there, the name is “Vietnam.”
south333 that keyboard has a Shift key. Use it. Please.
Did that idiot law making flag burning illegal actually get passed? Because, as has been stated, one of the rights protected by the flag is the right to burn it, and when that right is not protected, the flag is then ripe for burning.
No, I mix them to how they are interconnected, how one can lead to the other, which in general creates the problem with many, many children that we have today.
Ha! Ha! Funny.
Correct! Give the man a cigar!
Funny, according to several adamant posts here, kids in school are respectful little angels.
Quote, please. I don’t recall specifically stating that.
In answer to your question concerning my service record, I was drafted in the 70s, around about the time most draftees were being sent to the front. Unlike many, I went to the induction instead of Canada. Scared the crap out of me. I did nothing to try to avoid service. A week after my physical, I was sent by the Army to a medical lab, where a nasty little series of tests were run on me and a week later was informed that I was not wanted. It seems I have an unacceptable blood condition. While I was not looking forward to getting shot at, I was not willing to weasel out of performing my service either and, because of the field I was in then, I’d have been shipped over real fast as a medic. My father and my older brother had served in the military and when the draft called, I went.
Please, by all means do not let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.
I don’t consider it mindless. Obviously, you do. Perhaps elected officials should not swear an oath before taking office either. I mean, what the heck, the oaths mean nothing in this civilized group of free thinkers.
Mister, you are not qualified to say what I consider. So I’ll tell you, and I’ll use small words.
When a six-year-old who can’t tell you what “allegiance” means, much less spell it, is forced by the threat of punishment to swear to it, that’s mindless. Get it? If loyalty isn’t given after a free, informed choice, that’s not loyalty.
I don’t have a problem with oaths. You can check my other posts about that.
RoboDude, thanks for the information. But we must remain vigilant, man…
Excellent, intelligent debating tactics. What we can’t solve by dialogue and reasoned argument we’ll solve by bustin’ each others heads. (I’ve heard of fighting ignorance, but I don’t really think this is the way to go about it.) Good, and very, very adult. And thanks for reminding me once again why life is so much nicer without you as a next-door neighbor, Moony.
Then, for the next bit:
Maybe. My point is that they aren’t as interconnected as you seem to think they are, and I have yet to see you argue the opposing case cogently. I pointed out in my previous post that there are qualitative differences between “following school rules” on the one hand and being coerced into making a political statement you don’t agree with on the the other. I honestly don’t understand how these are interconnected. Are you implying that if you make kids stand up for the PoA, they’ll turn out to be model citizens who never break the rules? Or are you saying that the refusal to stand is just one symptom of a larger problem – that the kids of today just don’t have any respect anymore? I suspect it’s the latter – in which case you should probably change the OP to something like, “What’s up with kids these days? It’s their parents’ damn fault!” or something like that. Because as I see it there are two separate issues involved here – one concerning violence (and maybe lack of respect) in the modern school system, and the other concerning enforced patriotism.
I’d just like to let you know TheMoonGazerthat I have a ripped in half upside down U.S. Flag in my room that I flip off everyday (BTW, I know what having it upside down means, I’m not some idiot anarchist wanna-be or what have you, having the flag upside means “distress” and through my eyes, this country is in a constant state of distress).
I had said, about students refusing to stand during the pledge because of supposed insubordination: “And if that was the greatest extent of ‘disrespect or insubordination’ a student undertook, I think most teachers would be thrilled.”
Krispy Original responded:
As usual, you missed the point.
It is highly unlikely that a kid who really wants to be insubordinate to the teacher is only going to pick this one little area to do it. It is much more likely that they have an actual reason.
Well this is my last post, in here anyway. I do appologize for my typing errors and will remember your suggestions in the future. As for this thread, I feel that the consensis of the group (overall) is that it is a child’s choice. This thread is getting long and reppitive, so I’m going elsewhere (another good debate probably). But good luck to all of you who stay and continue to post your thoughts. I hope to see some of you in the future and to hear your opinions. Bye
First: TheMoonGazer is asking for cites? ROTFLMAO!
Second:
Did you or did you not say:
AND
You have already “enlightened” us with your version of discipline.
Dr. Field Marshall President for Life Dada’s dictatorial rule is not the Constitutional government the United States enjoys. Perhaps you should find a time machine and move to Dada’s Uganda.
Actually, all he or she needs to bring is one police officer.
I don’t suppose you have any proof of your domino theory?
Actually, it’s sad because it does describe your expressed views and actions.
Not everyone is as blessed as you with the ability to read minds.
Incorrect assertion. What posters opposed to your totalitarian tactics have said is that the children may be, and are, disciplined by the school authorities. I think your beef is that the child’s not disciplined when the child exercises his Freedom of Religion.
First: I did not say you specifically said that. I said, “You have made a big deal about how important the Pledge of Allegiance is to Veterans.”
Second: Here’s the basis of my assertion that you’ve made a big deal.
&
I’ve never bothered to check the statistics on this. How about providing them to back up your assertion? It seems to me that draftees were sent to many places: Georgia, Alabama, Oklahoma, Korea, Japan, Germany, etc. Many career soldiers were sent to Viet Nam. {I use that spelling because that’s the way my teacher at DLI, where I learned to speak Vietnamese, taught me to spell the name; however, he did teach me to use the completely correct spelling, with diacriticals.)
“Many” does not constitute “most.”
An induction scared you? No wonder you beat on children. Now, if you had served in a combat zone, as I have, then I could see you being scared while in the combat zone.
So my bet was right: unfit for duty.
As many (note that I did not say “most”) posters on this board know, I have served both in the Army and in the Navy. I do not remember anyone being in a field after one week’s service. I remember them being in Basic Training at that point. As it is, your intended field also had folks posted to Georgia, Alabama, Oklahoma, Korea, Japan, Germany, etc. What are the statistics involved?
Those who protested did not “weasel out” of the draft. They had issues with the legalities of the war in Viet Nam. The government granted them amnesty. Deal with it.
Dr. Field Marshall for Life TheMoonGazer has apparently not read the part of the Constitution which describes citizenship, either.
As has been pointed out, the forced recitation of the Pledge is a mindless, rote exercise. The voluntary recitation is not.
Have you even read the Constitution? Not even the president is required to swear an oath prior to entering office. He (or she) may affirm. Here’s the Constitution’s wording (bolding is mine):
Please explain how someone so ignorant of the issues, and the governing document, involved is doing that document, and the nation it governs, honor by his stated refusal to abide by that document.
Things have heated up in here since I last dropped in.
Funny. I have friends who were drafted in 69 and 70 and every one of them mentioned that they were scared sh**less at the induction. At 18 and 19, you’re kids, cloistered from the real world and the word was circulating back then that those who awaited the draft were going to become cannon fodder, while righteous enlisted would be given preferential treatment. True or not, it was there.
Before you ask, Mr. Soldier-man: SIR! Yes SIR! I never served, SIR! I was not drafted, SIR!
I don’t consider that making me any less of a man, citizen or loyal American. So, what’s your point, solder-man, SIR!
To the other soldier-man: I call it 'Nam also. I was never there. Big darn deal.
So, your point is?
Him:
You:
Me: Medics were in short supply. I seem to recall that they had this tendency of getting shot at and I also heard how anyone who made it as a medic was being shipped out of basic to 'Nam. Of course, when we heard this, we did not know that medics were one of the more favored targets of the Vietcong.
It looks to me that most posters here seem to feel that no one should obey, in any way, shape or form, any regulation or rule that they have a problem with. So, kids should not be told to stand for the Pledge, well, they then should not be told that stealing is wrong, that punching a kid one is angry at is wrong, that having to make passing grades is wrong, that wearing clothing promoting racism or various religious or anti-religious sentiments is wrong.
Now, since you feel they should not be ‘forced’ to stand for the pledge, then you may not force them to go to school, tell them not to lie, not to take drugs, or even to study. Hey! By what right do you force your kid to study that boring, biased, often one sided World History? If he doesn’t want to, for good reasons all his own, then he does not have to, does he?
Don’t force your kid to respect his teachers either and, if that is the rule, then don’t get all upset when the teachers don’t respect your kid.
Oh, my, Children have, rights, you know!! According to most of the posters, a child may not be forced to do anything, which, by reasoning, means listening to you. What right do you have to tell your kid to go to bed at a certain time? You want to cite the legal right which says you may not let your kid wander around after midnight if you don’t want him to? Umm, by what right do you insist he do chores around your home? He has rights, you know, the right to refuse to do anything he chooses and he doesn’t have to tell you why!
I guess your kid can ignore those speed limit signs too. The movie show has no right to keep a 14 year old out of an XXX rated movie then. Nor do the owners of the theater have the right to throw him out on his butt if he annoys the other customers. After all, he has the right of freedom of speech and if the movie sucks, he has the right to be belligerent about it, to everyone else.
He has the right to have unprotected sex if he chooses, even though at 14 he thinks he is immortal and does not fully grasp the concept of AIDS because it always happens to someone else, not him. You don’t have the right to even try to force him to use protection.
Oh, lets not forget that your ‘mature’ 15 year old daughter has the right to go and screw that 25 year old guy because ‘she loves him.’
We give our children rules and regulations to live by, because without them, they revert to animals. We enforce those rules and regulations by whatever means necessary because we know that kids will test authority to see just how far they can go.
When I was in school, the rule was, you stand for the pledge. I don’t know if you had to say it, but you stood for it and if you did not, then you went to visit the principal to explain why and if he did not like your excuse, then Mom and Dad were called in. Few that I knew of would agree with their kid not at least standing for the pledge.
After listening to so many posters here, I can well understand how the ‘selfish I-got-mine 80s’ came about and how the Don’t touch that kid 90s created a huge social mess that we’re still cleaning up.
After all, if you disagree with a rule or law, you ignore it.
Just going to throw my two cents in here. Back in elementary school there was a girl in my class that never did stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. I admired this girls strength and will power. Here was this little 8 year old girl not standing up for something because she didn’t believe in it. Her background was islamic or some sort of indian (it’s been a long time ago) and she didn’t believe in it. The thing is she was able to back up her argument to the teacher then. The teacher when confronted by an 8 year old was dumbfounded. She didn’t know how to come back to this little girl and tell her what SHE AND THE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION thought was right for that girl to do. This is the only thing I can clearly recall from my elementary school years. Now I’m not saying I won’t stand up for because I always have and I always will but we need to respect other peoples opinions and beliefs.
Not wanting to quote every thing about your post with which I disagree, I’ve decided not to quote directly from your diatribe.
The gist of your disagreement seems to be along the lines of “Well, if you won’t observe this rule, you won’t observe the law either and we’re on our way to anarchism.”
This is as stupid as it is transparent. Expressing a harmless civil disobedience to an enforced nationalist ritual **is not **the same as breaking laws which are there for public safety, and I suspect you don’t believe that we hold the position you ascibe to us - which make your diatribe dishonest as well as clumsy.
For the record, I have pledged allegiance many times, at least every day I wore the uniform. I do not require, nor would I wish the pledging of allegiance of someone who does not understand it or does not feel it.
And, by the way, you can skip “Soldier man”. The correct form of address for my rank is “Captain.”
Hypocrisy, anyone? I thought you and ole Moony-boy had so much respect for the armed forces, and the men and women who serve in them, that you would bust a head or two to protect us from insults! But now we see how deep that respect really runs. You’ll attack somebody for burning your flag, or refusing to say your Pledge, but you don’t seem to have very much respect for the real people behind your precious symbol.
Let’s face it, shall we, and just call a spade a spade: the only people you and Moon really respect are the ones who think exactly like you do. So when it comes right down to it, you don’t actually condone the freedoms you claim to be so proud of.
David B and Screwtape dealt with this idiocy already in their previous posts, far more eloquently than I ever could. But just to reiterate, and make it crystal clear, NOBODY in this thread is advocating anything remotely like what you suggest above. As I tried to point out earlier, forcing kids to pledge their allegiance to the States is a political statement, qualitatively different from imposing the discipline necessary to successfully run a school (or raise a kid). I’ve explained why I think that and if you think otherwise, please make your case. Hint: Ranting and foaming at the mouth do not constitute reasoned arguements.
Good one. And let’s not forget that the 80s and 90s were undoubtably the result of the you’ll do what I damn tell you to do 70s (whatever the hell that means). But let me revert to your own language for just a second. Refusing to obey a law you disagree with is know as civil disobedience, and is actually an integral part of our rich American heritage. As I recall, there were some people a couple of hundred years ago in North America who actually refused to pay their taxes, and even dumped tea into the Boston Harbor as a protest.
Good thing you weren’t around then – you’d have probably sent them to the principle’s office for disciplinary action.
Bring it on and bring many, many, many friends.
Funny.