Kudos to Mississippi

Great Debates
41

First, the CBF (Confederate Battle Flag) has been a part of Mississippi’s flag since 1894. So no one can claim we put it in there recently.

This whole flag flap started when the Democrats in the Legislature (The Legislature really runs MS, the goveneror is mostly powerless.) Decided to vote it out. Lawsuits flew until the State Supreme Court looked over the flap and said, to paraphrase, “Guys, when we updated the State Legal Code in 1906, the flag didn’t get reauthorized. (All laws that didn’t get carried forward were null-and-void). So therefore we haven’t had a flag for 100+ years. Have a nice day.”

This stunned everyone. Then they decided to maybe it was time to change the flag. A commission was appointed, votes tallied, and it was decided to put to a vote. One voice was rasied against putting it to a vote, in retrospect, he was right. (Maybe he’ll try again, hopefully?) Thus the result the other day, that the old flag was voted for in a 2-1 margin.

Now, for outsiders (that’s ya’ll, btw), this may be confusing. Are we validating slavery? Are we saying we don’t apologise for our past? Are we still fighting the “Civil” War, many people have asked.

Let me explain. In short, no. What this came down to, was two main things. One was the suspicion that if we vote the old flag down, what part of our state history would come under fire next? Would we start bulldozing Monuments to those who died doing their duty for a State and shortlived nation in which they had no voice? Would we have to give up vital parts of our culture? Where do we stop once we start doing this? The other, and much larger part, was the large group (both black and white) who didn’t see why we should change it. They didn’t see a problem with it. It’s just a flag, a symbol we’ve had for ages. Most didn’t see a reason to change the flag.

Majority black areas voted for the old flag, and in the Jackson metro area, most voted for the newer flag. The vote went across racial lines, somewhat. Criticism could be laid at the feet of the NAACP and others, who didn’t push the issue as hard as they can. Trust me, if there’s a republican the NAACP wants out, they’ll go all out (including taking absentee ballots to the homebound and telling them to vote democratic “be loyal”) to get it done. They didn’t this time around.

I guess one thing you can say, is that while the outside world may be offended by what we fly, a majority here aren’t. Some have gotten past the questionable history of the symbol on the flag. Most know racism is fading into the background, as the generation that spawned it gets old and dies.

Should we be offended by a symbol? Good question. Isn’t it more important what we believe in our hearts? I can say racism is dying. I understand some may not see it dying as fast as they want it, but it can’t happen overnight. There is a lot of resentment against those who would come into the state and bulldoze things down right and left, and bludgeon people into thinking more PC.

That is what is happening here. We are changing in Mississippi. Slowly, but change is happening. All the anger and venom in the press and public opinion probably won’t speed things up.

For the record, I voted against the old flag. I’m tired of seeing the klan and other hate groups use this state as some sort of homeland or what not.

42

Does anyone on this board even know why the battle flag took the place of the stars and bars? The stars and bars was to close to the federal flag to be clearly recognized under battle conditions.

A slight hijack…

As for calling it “the Civil war”. It was not a civil war…that is two entities fighting for the same government. Hence :The War for Southern Independence.

And I don’t care what anyone says, I am as far from a racist as you can get. Just because I look at a flag and feel good about it will never make me one. Just for the record…I get the same feeling when I see Old Glory.

Just one more point. There was only one true cause of the War…

secession.

43

And what was the cause of the secession?

44

First, Saint Zero, did the majority black areas feature majority black turnout? Something to consider in all this.

Now for Reeder:

Sigh, De Nile, I live on it. Denial, your attitude. It was a fucking civil war, whatever tortured semantics you might want to adopt.

See above. Sad.
**
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45

Reeder, as I posted in another thread, in West Point there is a monument to the Civil War which features a circle of Civil War cannon with their mouths either pointed into the ground or away, out from the circle, I don’t remember which right now. The symbolism is simple & eloquent: that Americans should never again use guns against each other.
At some point in the near future, I don’t know exactly when because I try my hardest not to think about this deranged individual, Timothy McVeigh will be executed for having done precisely what that monument wished would never happen again.
War is real. Blood shed in a cause not worth dying for is blood wasted. The only thing those Stars & Bars symbolize, especially since we’re talking about a battle flag, is wasted lives.

[sup]comic relief: somewhere in West Point there’s a portrait of Robert E Lee in Union Blue. Swear to gawd. [/sup]

46

Collounsbury…

Ok, you tell me just what a civil war is. Also, you are saying that had the south not seceeded there would have still been a war?

47

Pantom…

Don’t tell you didn’t know that Robert E. Lee and J.E.B. Stuart led the raid that captured John Brown at Harpers Ferry?

48

Wow! That changes everything! The flag is really all about the battlefield identification of slaveholders and racists. That way, it’ll be easier to call down some artillery, a policy I wholeheartedly endorse.

Zowie! You mean I’ve been talking about the wrong war entirely? And here I was thinking that when the rednecks and peckerwoods got their asses righteously kicked. I had no idea that I was living in the C.S.A.

Can’t deny the logic of that one! Thanks for the enlightenment!

Okay, enough sarcasm. Reeder, your drive-by Confederate trivia is far better suited to MPSIMS (or better yet, the David Duke message board) than GD. If you’re going to start these discussions, why don’t you try actually engaging the issues for a change?
minty green
Anxiously awaiting Reeder’s suggestion that I need to read the autobiography of Nathan Beford Forrest

49

The turnout was one of the best we’ve ever had down here. The last presidental election drew less interest, for reference.

Black turnout could have been better, like I said. The NAACP didn’t do it’s caravans and all that like it normally does. No clue why. But even with that, not all blacks voted for the new flag. But there was a great turnout in majority black areas, and most blacks that could get to the polls did so.

50

And the irrelevant trivia just keeps on coming, even while I’m writing my previous post!

Reeder, try to keep this helpful hint in mind. An argument requires at least three, closely-related sentences: a premise, evidence, and a conclusion. Merely asking whether we remember the birthday of Stonewall Jackson says absolutely nothing about the issue of racism and the confederate battle flag.

51

Surely you jest.

A civil war is a war in which one portion of previously existing nation attempts to obtain through violence some redress of percieved grievances, often through secession from the larger body politic.(*)

Surely you do understand the reason why the Civil War has been called such?

As I said, denial. It’s a said and pitiful state.
(*: in re the obvious retort on the American War of Independance one might note that while one hand it might fit the above definition, on the other hand contemporaries seem to be have recognized the colonies as being something apart from the Old Country in both de jure and de facto senses. Ergo, the terminology never arose here. I think one can cogently argue that the splitting off of colonies, settlement or otherwise, is a seperate issue.)

52

And the irrelevant trivia just keeps on coming, even while I’m writing my previous post!

Reeder, try to keep this helpful hint in mind. An argument requires at least three, closely-related sentences: a premise, evidence, and a conclusion. Merely asking whether we remember the birthday of Stonewall Jackson says absolutely nothing about the issue of racism and the confederate battle flag.

53

Yes, Reeder, I knew that. I’ve never brought it up, because as far as I’m concerned, it shows that the argument that Robert E Lee was merely fighting, reluctantly, for Virginia and didn’t really like slavery is a bunch of hogwash.

So, thanks for bringing it up for me.

54

And the irrelevant trivia just keeps on coming, even while I’m writing my previous post!

Reeder, try to keep this helpful hint in mind. An argument requires at least three, closely-related sentences: a premise, evidence, and a conclusion. Merely asking whether we remember the birthday of Stonewall Jackson says absolutely nothing about the issue of racism and the confederate battle flag.

55

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

civil war: “A war between factions or regions of the same country.” (emphasis added)

56

Oh great, every time I got the time out message, it posted again. If there’s a mod around, would you mind cleaning up my multiple posts? Thanks!

57

  1. Yes it was a civil war and no it like all wars was nothing about sucession or slavery. It was all about economics.

  2. This reminds me of the argument about the “Mon” known commonly to Westerns upon first glance as a “Swastika.” The Mon was actullay Buddhist holy symbol hundreds of years before oit became known as the “Twisted Cross.” Therefore show me or any other Asian a Swastika and they will see a Asian religion holy symbol (and sometimes a symbol used to denote temples on a map in some books) but show it to someone who knows or suffered under Nazi Germany in WWII and you will be a hatemonger.

BTW Fun fact. The NAACP recently got the symbol removed of of a pokemon card. Victory for the Allied forces again! :slight_smile:

3.Speaking of Symbols, it would seem if the rebel flag can fly with it’s supposed symbol of hatred,then people shoud also have no problem with Christmass trees or Crosses in public either. But there was big flap about those recently. Wow…symbols of “hate”=okay.Religious symbols=Dame! (no good)

4.I don’t find it per se as a flag offensive at all. I do however when it is being waived in my face and I’m called racial slurs by the flag bearer. However, for the record I would feel the same if someone did that to me with the American flag, the Canadian flag or any other flag. Symbols are nothing,it is how they are used that makes them symbolsof “hate” or not.

  1. I want to get one (a confederate flag) myself,but instead of the orange and Blue, I would prefer Black,Red and Green :smiley:

6.One more thing into the fry. I went to a flag store in search of my “African Confederate” flag much to no avail. They had a bunch of regular Confederate flags thogh,including the blantantly racist ones (Think nthere was one that said “white Pride”)

I inquired to the shop owner if he had any Japanese Imperal flags (The Sunburst design,another favorate of mine) he said “No that would be too offensive.” Go figure.

58

  1. Yes it was a civil war and no it like all wars was nothing about sucession or slavery. It was all about economics.

  2. This reminds me of the argument about the “Mon” known commonly to Westerns upon first glance as a “Swastika.” The Mon was actullay Buddhist holy symbol hundreds of years before oit became known as the “Twisted Cross.” Therefore show me or any other Asian a Swastika and they will see a Asian religion holy symbol (and sometimes a symbol used to denote temples on a map in some books) but show it to someone who knows or suffered under Nazi Germany in WWII and you will be a hatemonger.

BTW Fun fact. The NAACP recently got the symbol removed of of a pokemon card. Victory for the Allied forces again! :slight_smile:

3.Speaking of Symbols, it would seem if the rebel flag can fly with it’s supposed symbol of hatred,then people shoud also have no problem with Christmass trees or Crosses in public either. But there was big flap about those recently. Wow…symbols of “hate”=okay.Religious symbols=Dame! (no good)

4.I don’t find it per se as a flag offensive at all. I do however when it is being waived in my face and I’m called racial slurs by the flag bearer. However, for the record I would feel the same if someone did that to me with the American flag, the Canadian flag or any other flag. Symbols are nothing,it is how they are used that makes them symbolsof “hate” or not.

  1. I want to get one (a confederate flag) myself,but instead of the orange and Blue, I would prefer Black,Red and Green :smiley:

6.One more thing into the fry. I went to a flag store in search of my “African Confederate” flag much to no avail. They had a bunch of regular Confederate flags thogh,including the blantantly racist ones (Think nthere was one that said “white Pride”)

I inquired to the shop owner if he had any Japanese Imperal flags (The Sunburst design,another favorate of mine) he said “No that would be too offensive.” Go figure.

59

Minty Green, re N.B. Forrest: If it’s good enough for our Attorney General, it would be the height of egotism for you to reject it! :smiley:

Regarding terminology:

A civil war in the strict sense is an armed conflict between two factions, each of which has a quasi-legitimate claim to run a given country, for the control of that whole country. Examples from British history are the English Civil War and the Wars of the Roses.

A revolution is, technically, the overthrow of the established government of a country by a faction with little or no previous legitimate claim to be its government. The October Revolution in Russia would be the classic example. It may be noted that the first phase of the French Revolution was technically not one but a civil war.

A rebellion or revolt is the attempt by a portion of a nation to secede and establish itself as a separate, autonomous nation. A successful revolt or rebellion is often termed a revolution, as in our own Revolutionary War. An unsuccessful one is generally awarded the term civil war by the winning original government, as in the Congolese and Nigerian Civil Wars, which originated as the revolts of Katanga and Biafra. Our own Civil War is such by this extended definition.

And, of course, a coup d’etat is a pre-emptive civil war-in-brief that is over before most of the citizenry realize it happened.

(These are not dictionary definitions, but my own attempts to make sense of the sometimes conflicting English usage on terms for the various “internal wars” that nations fight. Feel free to revise and correct to your heart’s content, but I will not throw in the towel because Messrs. G. & C. Merriam & Co. call them all synonyms or something. Each carries a separate connotative flavor, though they do clearly overlap.)

60

Are grits, black-eyed peas and okra too stereotypic?
And can you wash down a Moon Pie with anything but RC Cola?
The other southern states are probably vastly relieved at the flag vote. As in “Things may be bad here, but at least it’s not Mississippi”.
Still searching for really good barbecue here in southeast TX.

And that’s Civil War, Reeder.