Well, ME, this one had zilch inspiration, so pretty uninspired sounds better to me. My point though is that we had a chance to have a better flag and all they cared about was getting rid of the old one. These were people that didn’t really care about Mississippi and so I can understand why you would identify with them.
Kniz, I voted for the new flag simply because I do care about Mississippi. I want to see that old flag die, simply because it represents a war that we LOST. I don’t intend to keep refighting a war that was pointless from the beginning.
Okay, Minty, I’m a newbie, so I can’t do all that copying and lining up each point. Please stick with me, I’ll do my best.
Basically, we seem to be in agreement on the first point. You agree with me, but then state the obvious fact that some votes for the old flag were reacist. I do not deny that at all. However, somewhere along the line on this thread there have been statements that if a person voted for the old flag the reason was undoubtedly racist. I will accept your 20% figure, but not their 100% figure.
On the second point I honestly do not have the figures so I will accept your 2/3 figure for the black vote for the new flag (I don’t like the new flag, maybe some of them just thought it was pretty). Still 1/3 of the vote that was supposed to be the ones offended by the old flag was a pretty good showing. How many of those votes did your boy Dubya get?
On the last point it seems to me that you now have stretched the 20% racism vote to a “dominate” figure. In my first post I told about how only people that supported the old flag showed up at the first meeting. This was not organized or made up of racists. I will still only give you a little over your 20% and since this is not a case where they would change their vote, it would still be close.
As to Muffin. She is from Quebec, which wants to seceed from Canada and also on another thread she is communicating with a demonstrator in Quebec City. She doesn’t agree with Mississippi and I don’t agree with Quebec but somehow it seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
Well, since I’m not from Mississippi, and have never lived in Mississippi, and have no close relatives from Mississippi, I don’t suppose I “care about Mississippi” to any greater extent than my general benevolence towards my fellow man would require. On the other hand, I am a Southerner, so I care about the issue more than I do about whether or not, say, Iraq should have Islamic slogans on its flag, or go back to the pre-Gulf War secular version.
I don’t know that you can say that the designers of the would-have-been-new flag “don’t care about Mississippi”, though. I agree, it’s not terribly inspiring. Still, do you think the designer of the state flag of Indiana was a scheming Southerner hellbent on revenge for Sherman’s march or something? Most American state flags are rather dull. There are worse things than dull.
I am not female. I am not from Quebec, although I was botn there and lived there for my first two years. The present demonstrations in Quebec have nothing at all to do with secession, and would have taken place in whatever city the international conference was held. As far as the Quebec question goes, its moves toward secession are based on it having a very different cultre than the rest of Canada, whereas the secession of southern states was about the economics of slavery.
Glad you enjoyed my site. Welcome to the boards.
Just wanted to point out that there is an excellent essay on the relationship between the Confederacy and the modern South over at time.com. It presents both sides of the controversy quite well.
Interestingly, near the beginning of the story is this little nugget:
That makes my estimate that 20% of white southerners were significantly prejudiced against African Americans look relatively on-target, and adds that a further 30% or so are “slightly” prejudiced. (And yes, I realize there’s no 1:1 correlation between my formulation and the poll’s question. It’s still close enough for meaningful conclusions to be drawn, as far as I’m concerned.)
As for how that relates to the flag debate? Well if up to half of white voters are varying degrees of bigoted, I’m not so inclined to take them at their word when they claim their support of the Confederate flag has no message of racism at all.
I’m going to have to side with Dennis Miller (Or one of his writers) on this one.
The confederate flag doesn’t represent slavery and racism?
Yeah. And the swastika is just an innocent plus sign doing a cartwheel.
MEBuckner - if you are from the south, why pick on Indiana. Their flag is at least original if not inspired.
Misty Green - 50% still is a long shot from those on this tread that claimed everyone that voted for the old flag was a redneck racist. It does look possibly worse for me since they recently started planting the 50 acres on cotton behind my house and more fields across the road. I personally would say that my neighbor shouldn’t push for inclusion where he isn’t wanted. Would you care to bet that some of those 30% slightly voters didn’t vote for the old flag? I’ll give you all of the 19%, even those with hanging chads.
My point is, the voters of Mississippi had a choice between a flag which many consider to be offensive, and a flag which is merely dull and uninspired. Now, if you want to argue that the old flag wasn’t offensive, that’s one argument. But let’s not go off on some tangent by implying that, if only the new flag had gloriously captured the essence of Mississippi, you would have been willing to ditch the old one. The new flag looked a lot like the U.S. flag. So does the flag of North Carolina. The flag of Ohio is clearly a variation on the basic American flag motif (blue field, white stars, red and white stripes), albeit with a funky shape. For that matter, the flag of Texas is pretty derivative of the U.S. flag, and everyone seems to think the Great Lone Star State has a fine flag. Here is a picture showing the now-rejected new flag. Is it strikingly original? No. Like many U.S. state flags, it’s sort of generic American. It does embody Mississippi-ness, to about the extent that most state flags represent their states: it has 20 stars, and Mississippi was the 20th state to join the Union. Not terribly meaningful, perhaps, but most state flags aren’t.
Now, if you want to argue that being a part of the Old Confederacy is more meaningful to the identity of Mississippi than being the 20th state to join the Union, so be it. Just be aware of exactly what it is which the Confederacy was founded upon–something which, as I’ll point out again, the state of Mississippi was pretty honest about when it joined the Rebel cause.
How do y’all feel about the Bonnie Blue (not as the flag of MS, but in general)? Can I display that flag as a way of representing all the good things that people have said the CBF stands for, without also invoking all the racial baggage?
I realize that they’re both flags of the same Confederacy, but is one less sensational or hurtful than the other?
Tennessee Ben-
I’m with you. The Bonnie Blue Flag is a pretty good substitute. It has considerable history as an emblem of the South, but doesn’t have the baggage of having been waved around at Klan rallies.
Back to the OP fer a second:
Hey fellow Southerners, let’s not get too carried away with ourselves when bashing Mississippi for keeping the flag. (You know what I mean: “Well, at least we’re not Mississippi!”) I feel confident that if the flag issue had been tackled by referendum (rather than through the legislative process) in South Carolina and Georgia, the Confederate flag would be waving there still. And it would have won a referendum by a similar margin to that seen in Mississippi. I remember when Governor Zell Miller tried to change the Georgia flag in the early nineties, over 60% of Georgians wanted to keep the flag as it was.
spoke-:
Unfortunately, the Bonnie Blue is not just “an emblem of the South.” It is primarily (though not exclusively) an emblem of the Confederacy, which is only one small portion of Southern history and heritage. I would find it marginally less offensive merely because, as you point out, it has not been used in modern times as a rallying symbol for every dumbass racist in the country. On the other hand, the BB still carries all the baggage of the Confederacy with which it is associated, and as such seems inappropriate to me as a modern-day state symbol.
minty green-
The Bonnie Blue, if I’m not mistaken, actually predates the Civil War (though it certainly peaked in popularity during the war years). Also, unless I’m mistaken, it was never officially adopted by the Confederacy or any of its states. Sounds pretty innocuous to me.
As I have said before, my primary concern is in not intentionally causing offense to others. I would have no problem with the Confederate battle flag itself, but for the fact that others are offended by it (and understandably so).
The Bonnie Blue Flag clearly does not have this “offensiveness quotient,” because it has never been co-opted by racist peckerwoods.
However, I have no doubt that if folks started flying the Bonnie Blue Flag, the NAACP would soon inform its constituents that they ought to be offended by it. (I am quite cynical about the use of the flag issue as a fund-raising device.)
By the way, if you want to get technical about flags asociated with the Confederacy, I might point out that even the proposed “new flag” in Mississippi seems to be based on the Stars and Bars (the official flag of the Confederacy).
And besides, we’re talking about people going out of their way to fly the Bonnie Blue instead of the battle flag for the very reason that they don’t want to send a message of racism. If people get offended by the Bonnie Blue, it seems to me that they are hard-headedly determined to be offended.
I’m with you, spoke-. The BB does indeed predate the Civil War, although its use only became widespread during the Confederacy. Although the CSA did not adopt the flag, it did have official status in several of its states, according to my link above. Thus, it still has strong ties to the Confederacy, it seems to me. And I don’t think that any symbol of the Confederacy should be granted official status as a state symbol today.
Believe me, I’m definitely not arguing that private individuals should not be able to display any flag they want. I’m talking strictly about state action here. I certainly agree that the Bonnie Blue is less offensive than the battle flag today. But when it comes to official state flags, I would strenuously object to any design that recalled a government primarily dedicated to the proposition that it was perfectly moral to enslave another race of people.
A slight hijack…
Partially as a result of the obsession with the Civil War here on the Straight Dope by some posters, and in the South, which I first visited as an adult (although it has been properly pointed out to me that since most of the war took place there, it’s only natural that most of the monuments would be there too), my family took a detour home from a tourist trip to DC to visit Gettysburg National Park. Figured it would be good for my son, too, who has a strong interest in history, partially as a result of the History Channel (which is doing a great job, BTW, of getting kids interested in history, from what I can see).
At the Virginia Memorial which, for those of you who haven’t yet visited, is the spot from which Pickett’s Charge was launched, my son and I took a walk down to the spot where Lee was said to have stopped on his horse to console the survivors as they streamed back from the charge. There’s a hidden speaker there which gives you a narrative - from the Southern side - of what happened.
As we climbed back into our car, my wife, who had stayed behind, told us that someone had walked back from there saying loudly “We could’ve been free!”
I had to explain to my incredulous son that, 140 years later, there are still people, lots of them, in the South, who haven’t gotten over it. As an example, I used the vote over the Mississippi flag. (He was incredulous about the outcome of that, too, which I would have been two years ago, before I joined the Straight Dope and saw the depth of feeling the not-so-Late Unpleasantness can still evoke.)
Isn’t this just a wee bit pathetic?
PS: It’s well worth visiting, especially if you’ve read about the battle in books, are familiar with the landmarks, and would like to see them in person. Very illuminating.
Well, Pantom, I do not agree with that person that said “We could’ve been free”. If you read my posts I do not even speak of the Civil War. If you keep digging back in history there are always reasons that this or that can be thought of as offensive. The Texas flag that was mentioned could soon be considered offensive by the Latinos that will become the majority in that state. It is the flag that ole Sam Houston used while taking Texas away from Mexico. Or was that O.K.? I personally am glad the south did not win and I don’t want to give Texas back.
Your Texas history is off a bit, kniz. The Texas Revolution was only one of several, simultaneous revolts against the Mexican government. They were put down all the other Mexican territories–except for Texas. Anglos were still a minority in Texas at the time, and the revolution was strongly supported by many non-Anglos. Quite a few of the defenders killed at the Alamo were of Mexican ancestry. Sam Houston did not “take Texas away from Mexico.” Texans–of all ethnic backgrounds–took Texas away from Santa Ana.
Besides, the current Lone Star flag was not adopted by the Republic of Texas until several years after the revolution, so it’s not a symbol of the revolution in any event.
But of course the Lone Star is derived from the Bonnie Blue Flag, and you can’t very well abide a symbol associated with the Civil War in your state flag can you, minty green? 
Phantom makes a very good point although a little vague…
Everywhere you go in the South are reminders of our Confederate heritage. There is definately no need to fly the Stars and Bars over the capitol building. Here in VA you can be out for a little nature walk beside the James or Appomattox rivers and damned near trip over some forgotten plaque to some not well known skirmish. You can drive down route 5 on the way to Williamsburg and turn into any number of plantations, or drive down Monument Avenue and see towering bronze statues of Lee, Jackson, and Stuart. (Now Arthur Ashe too, but the thing is so damned ugly I think they might have done it on purpose, made it ugly K-Mart art that is.) If you ride through City Point in Hopewell or Petersburg there are plaques on the old buildings denoting the year they were built and purpose during the Civil War. There are more battlefield parks than you can shake a stick at, of course an awful lot of battles were fought here. While the college in Fredrickburg, Mary Washington, displays classic Jeffersonian style architecture, (as do many VA colleges) there is the battlefield park almost right across the street. Reminders of the war permeate the landscape.
Now it’s been quite awhile since I went south. When I was a kid we took regular trips to Florida, but if I can remember correctly the south is beautiful particularily it’s wonderful old homes. (Which my mother made sure we saw damned near every one of…and the battlefields.) Greek Revival plantation style homes, battlefields, bronze monuments, plaques, they are everywhere down here. There isn’t anywhere you look that does not remind you daily that this is the South, or of it’s “Confederate Heritage”.
Needs2know