Ladies, check in if you've never been groped (unwillingly)

In My Humble Opinion
181

If you don’t want to be randomly groped at a club, don’t go to the kinds of clubs where being randomly groped is the norm. I already said I don’t think that kind of culture is ok, and that’s why I no longer go to those clubs. There are plenty of other bars and clubs out there where people go to hook up, but where it is not okay to randomly grope people, and doing so would get you kicked out (the “excluded middle” you are talking about). You have lots of choices. It’s not like the subway, which is a form of public transport that people have to use whether they like it or not. People who go to sketchy clubs go specifically because they want that kind of experience. Nowadays if I feel like dancing I go to a different club, where groping a girl immediately attracts the attention of the bouncer.

Please don’t tell me what counts or doesn’t count as groping, as if your opinion is the end of the matter. I never said getting groped at a certain kind of club doesn’t count as groping. I said that to ME it’s DIFFERENT from getting groped on a place like the subway. All groping is wrong but it is not equal. Strictly my personal opinion.

182

On a more positive note, my husband just told me that his company (a construction management company) kicked a worker off site* today because he had harassed a woman who works at the building where they were working. They apparently have zero tolerance for that kind of bullshit.

*“Kicked off site” means he never gets to work on any job managed by my husband’s company again, and they are a very big company.

183

Good to hear!

When I first started reading this thread, I said to myself ‘yeah, I’ve been groped a few times over the years, hasn’t every woman?’ But as I read on through it all, more and more incidents started coming to mind. None of them were horrific except for one that really frightened me and I think that was because it was someone I’d known for a long time, I was friends with his wife first but I’d known them both for years, we socialised together a fair bit, etc. I didn’t tell a soul about that incident. It was more than a grope actually, he told me he knew I wanted it and why resist what we both wanted, all that sort of thing, and he was physically quite forceful but thankfully wasn’t prepared to actually rape me. I think he could have if he was determined to do so, he was bigger and stronger than me. This is actually the first time I’ve even admitted to myself how bad it was and even now I feel as though I’m probably over-reacting when I compare to it to women who actually ARE raped. Anyway…

Most of the time, being groped is pretty minor in the scheme of things that can go wrong in life and yet at the same time, it’s demeaning and defeating. Mostly you just shrug and move on because seriously, what else can you do? I honestly didn’t realise that men didn’t realise it was such a common thing to happen to women. And all the things that people have already said apply, such as you often don’t even know who did it, if it’s someone you do know you’re going to be seen as making a fuss over nothing or someone who can’t take a bit of harmless fun between friends, was it really groping or was I somehow indicating that grabbing my boobs is no big deal and so on and so on.

I really like the idea of somehow making men see groping a woman as ‘gross and icky’. As to how you would do that, I have no idea!

184

t my job, I try and do my best to enforce a zero tolerance policy on my bus. If I suspect a man is perving on some woman, i’ll confront him and tell him to knock it off and move somewhere else. If he doesnt move, i’ll tell him to get off the bus.

If I had a woman indicate or tell me another passenger groped them I would call the sheriff immediately. Part of the reason this goes on is that the effort to deal with it far exceeds the effort to perpetuate it. Women will keep getting groped as long as its so difficult to openly confront gropers and speak out about it. :frowning:

I wonder if pickpocketing is treated similarly- if you were pickpocketed, would it get treated with the same passive nature and/or victim blaming that happens to gropers. It would be interesting to do an experiment to see how people react to an actor accusing another actor of groping vs stealing, varying the perpetrator and victims gender to see if it makes a difference.

Will people react more to “He tried to steal my purse!” Vs “He just grabbed my boob!” ?

185

Good to hear.

I was thinking about this again last night. There’s a thread around here somewhere about a woman who got groped by a guy at a club. The guy put his hand up her shirt and she wasn’t wearing a bra, so it was obviously very unwelcome skin contact. As if that wasn’t bad enough, even after she recoiled in horror and got away from her, he kept going around telling everyone how she wasn’t wearing a bra, and what a little slut she was, etc.

And I wonder why guys don’t do/say something when they hear shit like this. Have they not been told what to do? Why can’t they tell the guy to shut his fat mouth, or not listen, or tell him what a fucking asshole he is? Instead in my experience, they just listen. In that kind of situation at least I’m pretty sure I could count on my girlfriends.

186

Peer pressure, I guess. I suppose if you went clubbing with a mixed group the guys would say/do something about it if they really cared about their friendships with women. But unfortunately there is a very significant “bystander apathy” where people dont want to get involved. If the groper looks intimidating, maybe other guys are afraid to antagonize him. If a guy is with his partner, maybe he’d be hesitant to intervene for fear his partner might get the wrong idea on why he’s so concerned about some strange woman.

187

I’d like to have people see men who are groping as being the losers they are. Really, are you truly so socially inept that the only way you can get your hand on a woman’s boob is to target random strangers?

188

I was just barely 15 and walking to the store from my house. It was summer in the suburbs and one of those neighborhoods where you know people live in every house but you never see any of them. At a corner, my path crossed with a guy at least my parents’ age, if not older. He reached out and grabbed my boob. I asked him what he was doing, he replied “Holding your boob, why? Don’t you like it?” I said no, and walked away. I think he dropped his hand when I said I didn’t like it, but it was nearly 40 years ago.

I told my boyfriend of the time, he was appalled & nearly required me to have his escort everywhere. I did not tell my parents, because at best it would worry them, at worst they would require me to have escort everywhere.

In college I was alone at a guy’s apartment, and he started trying to diddle me with his toes. I told him I wasn’t interested, and again he stopped - I left immediately after. I don’t really consider this much in the way of groping because while he didn’t ask for permission in advance, he did stop when I told him to.

Neither of these were really in public though.

Then there was the time at a belly dance show backstage that a woman grabbed both boobs. Quite instinctively I raised my arms between hers and swept outward, breaking the contact. She loudly condemned how “uptight” us southern women were (she had a north east accent). I suspect that she got quite a few dirty looks from the other women around me, and might just have had a talking to that I didn’t see. I don’t even consider this a sexual move - just some sort of posturing.

Other than that, nada. I’m not saying that to say I somehow do things “better” either. If I am doing something “right”, I’d love to be able to bottle it and send it to the people who are bothered every day (free!)

Is the difference because of where I live & work? I live in the suburbs & have pretty much worked in the 'burbs or in downtown Fort Worth, which isn’t terribly crowded.

Do I somehow have an effective “don’t touch” aura? If so, I wish I could teach others how to have this.

Was I trained right? Is it the ADD, that makes me react & act in ways that the predators don’t understand, so they leave me alone? Or I don’t even notice what they’re doing?

Or is it just random chance that I’ve managed to avoid unpleasant encounters since college

189

I can’t recall ever being groped. I expect it’s just dumb luck – I’m the kind of person who would make an exceptional fuss if it happened, I’m told that’s pretty obvious even to casual observers, and I just haven’t run into any of the kind of potential gropers who would ignore that, like the Owner Of All Females referenced above.

Mind you, I do get catcalls and looks. A delivery boy the other day very politely told my tits to have a nice day as he handed over my food. That’s the same sort of thing in the sense that it’s a signal that something is wrong with the social climate, but not quite the same sort of thing in the sense that some part of the DO NOT TOUCH message has gotten through, and I never felt in any physical danger. It mostly inspires me to roll my eyes and refrain from giving them any attention. I can’t remember any of them trying to push it further.

I also sometimes have problems with older ladies wanting to touch my (very long) hair. It’s intrusive and annoying, but I personally never found it to be the same kind of threatening as groping would be. Mostly I get the sense that the older ladies in question are just ignorant of the idea that I might not appreciate having randoms stroke my ponytail; they do let go if I move or say something, and usually apologize.

Things get particularly broken, I feel, at the moment some guy looks at me and goes, “I shouldn’t touch her, she’ll go ballistic,” and follows it up with, “I should find someone quieter.” What? No. Your next thought should be, “I obviously shouldn’t be groping people.”

190

That’s not true. I’ve seen many altercations in nightclubs, between women and men alike, because it’s not okay.

You typically have a mix of alcohol, sexual activity, and tightly packed people in clubs, so the likelihood of it happening there is largely increased. As such, it’s a prime place for misconduct (not just sexual), though also a place where people enjoy that very same behavior. Inhibitions are much lower and some people become indifferent to the behavior, where they wouldn’t normally be in any other public place.

I’ve been groped by women in clubs and I’ve seen many more women groped and mistreated by men, leading to some pretty severe instances. Most of the time, men take any groping as an advance or dismiss it (most men won’t get physically confrontational with a woman over it). On the other hand, women and/or their partner(s) will confront and draw attention to the situation. Unless previously invited, it’s very rarely a positive outcome (meaning there is no real justice or lesson learned). Most times, it’s just better to remove yourself from the situation, rather than trying to address it over loud music and other people who have no idea what or why some confrontation is happening.

I’m in agreement that there is a double standard, especially in a grander sense, however, I think you’re getting too hung up on the idea that it’s considered acceptable, because it’s understood to be common. The two ideas are mutually exclusive, especially in a rather unique atmosphere.

191

I’ve definitely had men-- complete strangers-- step up to help me when I’ve been groped or whatever in public (and in night clubs), but I’d say it’s maybe one time out of 10. Usually, the other guys around will either act like they didn’t see (when it’s obvious they did) or shrug like “What can I do?”

Have you ever been held up against a wall by someone a foot taller than you and 50 pounds heavier than you, who is squeezing a part of your anatomy with such force that it actually hurts (breasts, for the record). . . while there are 100 people around and everyone is acting like nothing is happening when you can see that they see/ can hear you? It’s awful.

192

For better or worse I’ve taught my daughters various submission holds, how to/not to throw a punch, and where to aim. It was with a horrified pride I listend to my oldest and her friend recount a tit-grab (coward’s grope, from behind) at a school dance, a solid punch to between the guy’s eyes, and his subsequent descent to the dance floor. I’m still not certain physical violence was an entirely appropriate response, but somewhere out there is a guy who knows to be a bit more careful with his hands. And my daughter is a little more confident in throwing a punch.

Way before I had kids a couple friends and I were standing on a low wall on River St in Savannah, just holding our beers and taking in the St. Patrick’s Day crowd. A woman walked by us and reached up and tweaked our junk without looking up or breaking stride. We just gave each other a sort of bewildered look and shrugged it off as a weird experience. I personally didn’t feel violated.

I know there’s something different in the way women process unsolicited touching, but I struggle to understand it. Not saying it’s dumb, or inappropriate to be offended by it, just that I don’t understand the extent of the emotional reaction. Honest to gawd I’m not trolling, but can anyone explain it to me?
ETA: Not talking about actual intimidation & physical pain as described in Diosa’s post, or hands up the shirt–that I understand as over the line

193

For many women who are groped, this is not their first experience of sexual assault. So it wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of the offense comes from the very unpleasant memories it evokes and the threat of it happening again.

I don’t know if you’ve ever had PTSD, but my experience of it is that when an event triggers my symptoms, I experience an emotional overhaul. It puts you right back in that frame of mind, that situation, that terror, that shame, whatever. If you were twelve years old when it happened, you’re suddenly twelve years old again. If you felt helpless then, you feel helpless now.

As I said before, I’ve never been groped by a stranger, but the very idea makes me nauseated. I’m pretty confident I would totally fucking lose my shit.

You see intimidation in Diosa’s story, but you don’t seem to see the implied threat in everyone else’s stories of groping. Men who do this kind of thing don’t give a shit what women want and when someone larger and stronger than you clearly has no respect for your personal boundaries, it’s scary as hell.

194

Great Sun Jester, I think it’s intimidation in every case. If the person who is grabbing at you is bigger and stronger than you are, then you cannot assume that it’s going to end with a quick pinch, as your encounter in Savannah did. And, in fact, many of us have had experiences that it does in fact end with more aggression. Nothing like being overpowered to make you feel overpowered. So any little touch isn’t just any little touch to most women, I think. It’s a sign that you are at the bastard’s mercy, and that anyone who wants to can handle you. That’s pretty “violated”.

ETA or what Spice Weasel said.

195

It’s basically a guy telling you “I can rape you any time I want, but choose not to”. *And you know he’s right. *

196

Sure, let me quote this one really wise poster over in the male version of this thread:

[QUOTE=Diosabellissima]
I think the key difference here that’s making it hard for, say, female Dopers to understand the disconnect between posts like this and their experience is. . . well, in what you describe there, you were mildly annoyed, but not actually afraid. It doesn’t sound like you ever felt at risk for being violently raped, assaulted, or physically intimidated by these women, so it was less disconcerting.

Surely, I definitely don’t label all gropings as the same. The ones from random, slighter built dudes copping a feel of my ass as I walk by barely even register, whereas the ones where the guy has a foot and 50 pounds on me, all while cornering me or something. . . those are way more traumatizing.

I guess my point is: in general, I suspect female on male groping is less traumatizing for the victim because there is less of that whole power imbalance. Now, there are definitely physically or psychologically intimidating women, so please don’t think I’m saying it never happens. Rather, I’m just sort of babbling about the thoughts floating around in my head right now .

Now, I do suspect the school bullying described upthread is more in line with the experience of the average woman, since you are physically intimidated and potentially worried about your life.
[/QUOTE]

197

Maybe this could work as a deterrent? :wink:

198

And let me quote another wise poster in the Men’s thread :wink:

…because for me it’s not just the immediate threat of violence that’s so unsettling (although that certainly can be a huge part of it depending on the situation) but the systematic wearing-down of being treated with complete disrespect, like you’re not even on the same level of existence as the guy touching you. Like you’re not a human being with inherent dignity and worthiness of respect, you’re a woman. The times I’ve been groped, I was groped by strangers. It was not personal, they didn’t know me, they weren’t expressing a liking toward me as an individual – they saw me and for whatever reason they decided that it was all right to touch me without saying one fucking word to me first, like I was just this thing. Like, do you ask a chair permission to sit in it? Don’t be silly, that’s what it’s there for and it doesn’t care either way. So, you see a nice ass – do you care what the woman whose ass it is might be feeling or thinking about you touching her? Don’t be silly, she wouldn’t have left the house if she didn’t want some attention, go ahead and grab her, that’s what she’s there for.

199

That is very insightful. It reminds me of something an admitted fool once said, who was keenly aware of his ignorance and nonetheless bravely attempted to address said affliction:

:slight_smile:

Spice Weasel, that was more helpful than you probably realize, and I thank you for your patience with me. PTSD or something like it is probably part of my personal baggage. To this day I can’t watch movies that highlight infidelity and other kinds of betrayal. I can’t even watch the supposedly hilarious “Deal With It” TV show because it exploits personal deception. I really hadn’t thought of the OP topic in terms of dredging up past unpleasantness.

I really need to work on my image around here. At heart I’m a really great guy (if a bit impaired, socially) but it seems I always come off as an asshole no matter how hard I try not to.

200

When my mom died, I didn’t cry through the entire ceremony - I was too busy making sure I was doing the right thing, since I had never been center stage at a Hindu cremation ceremony before. When they put her in the box and my cousin pressed the button to burn her, that did it, and I burst into sobbing tears. Now whenever I watch a movie and there is a funeral or a cremation I cry at the same moment - when the dirt hits the coffin, or when someone presses that button. It brings me back to that exact moment.

Similarly, when someone molests me or touches me without my permission I am instantly transported to a helpless teenager*, humiliated and defenseless, being groped with no power. Now I have gained some power over the years and can now push away, shout, fight, but in that first instant I’m just that young woman again.

*I am so grateful it never happened to me as a child.

I love my SO. I trust him completely. I’ve been with him seventeen years. I weigh more than him. And yet when we play-wrestle, there is no doubt that he is stronger than me and can easily hold me down.

That’s how pretty much every man is. I’m not strong. I don’t have a lot of upper body strength. As I go through life it is a sobering thought to think that any man, anytime, can over power me. Oh, I wouldn’t go without a fight, but a really determined man, with a little time? I would eventually have to succumb.

And that’s what groping is all about. Of course it’s about getting their little thrill, but I also think it’s the allure of power. They have power over me, and I experience a loss of power and am weakened. I have become a thing, their plaything.