And maybe, as I think someone pointed out, some forgetting. Getting groped by some asshole just might be something that wouldn’t register with me enough to even remember. Perhaps I have forgotten some.
I haven’t been groped per se, and the creepy guy invading my space was during a trip to Spain. Other than that, I’ve travelled alone, walked alone at night, walked through poor neighborhoods, rich neighborhoods, and buses, and not groped. OTOH, I expect to live to 100, so there is still time (sadly).
*Cat-called is another thing.
I was originally going to say no because I felt that groping was sort of a lame attempt at sexual gratification. But then I reconsidered: twice I have been grabbed by a man who’s intent, I’m pretty sure was rape (I screamed my lungs out and fought/kicked/bit) and I got away. So I guess that qualifies as groping, since it involved unwelcome touching.
Oh, I am sure that was far from the case. But it was still different, we were outsiders. We had to learn how to behave very differently than we would in a white middle class neighborhood. My guess is the black women learned coping skills earlier, and probably needed somewhat different ones.
[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated;
I am becoming fascinated with the mystery of how some women are constantly groped and harassed and some never.[/QUOTE]
There could be a number of reasons: urban vs. rural, ‘good’ neighborhood vs. ‘bad’, good luck vs. bad. You sound a bit condescending.
For me, I think that the fact that I’m a petite, trusting woman makes me a target. I think that the fact that I’m trusting comes through in my body language/carriage for good and bad. I can’t do anything about being petite but believe me, I have learned to distrust.
I was in the women’s change room at the YMCA a few years ago when a fuckwit mom brought her 9 or 10 year old boy into the change room with her - for fuck’s sake, woman, there are naked women in here all the time, and he is plenty old enough to enjoy the scenery (which he obviously was doing by the look on his face). Stupid bint. (Yes, I know, in places like Europe everyone is naked all the time, blah blah blah - this was in Calgary, not Europe, and it is very much against our cultural norms for 10 year old boys to be in the women’s change room).
I think it is simply opportunity. Some men (and I assume some women, too) are just creeps, and they do creepy things.
When I started reading this thread, I was only thinking about one incident (a teenage boy grabbed my teenage butt as I passed him walking across a street decades ago), but then more and more came to mind as I read the thread.
It has only happened to me a handful of times in my 46 years, and every time it’s a complete surprise and throws me completely off-balance and my reaction is slow coming due mostly to how shocked I am that someone would think that that was an appropriate thing to do. And, of course, as so many others have said, the guy is long gone by the time you think to do something, or he has plausible deniability (like the dance lesson Romeos who like to brush their hands across your breasts as you do a turn - sorry! I couldn’t get my hand out of the way in time!). The dancing one is apparently very common - our female dance instructor made a point one time of telling the guys to watch their damned hands (I’m paraphrasing).
No, I don’t. If you think you hear condescension in my post, then I have to counter that I hear defensiveness in your post. If you read my posts in this thread, I haven’t been patronizing on this topic at all, so please don’t start that.
Hell yes, if I sound defensive it’s because I’ve actually had to defend myself (successfully) against two attacks. I mention my size and demeanor because they may have made me a target. I didn’t say your tone was patronizing, I’d characterize it more as dismissive.
Yeah, at this point, I am dismissing you, because your posts don’t make any sense in relation to my posts in this thread.
Since you include cat-calling in harassment… that you never walked by a construction site when you were in Granada?
Like others here, this is not a subject I care to dwell on, but since I’ve read here I’ve been thinking. I don’t think it’s really a rural versus urban issue, either. At least as far as who is inclined to groped/be groped.
I’d guess that the percentage of men who practiced groping in my little farming community was about the same. I know all the mature women knew who the guys were who had happy hands. They just didn’t do it in town because of all the social implications.
I am gratified to read of the number of women who say they haven’t been groped. Maybe we have made some progress in that area since when it was a larger issue for me. And many of the younger men who post here are a lot more socially aware than my generation was.
And still it’s the old “You can’t legislate morality.” You can punish a man for his actions but you can’t make him stop wanting to do them. And we are punishing more men for their actions. Sometimes that’s a mixed blessing.
Lack of respect for women and boundaries is a part of it. But I think it runs deeper than that.
Is it really surprising or a mystery that some women have never been groped? Many women have (I have), but that doesn’t mean that every woman on the face of the planet will have been. That seems normal to me that some people have been assaulted more than others, and some people not at all. It’s the same with car accidents, muggings, break-ins, all kinds of misfortune.
I think it is just luck, because a) what is this ‘aura’ that people think they protect themselves with? What is the magic posture that keeps away creeps? Head up, head down, challenging, submissive, contemptuous, carefully neutral, what? Tell the rest of us, because there a lot of women who’d like to know.
and b) comparing it to break ins, some people on this board have been broken several times. My home security is horribly lax (sometimes I go out and leave the back door of the house standing open), and I live in the city, but I have never been broken into. At times I have left my purse on the front seat of the car, with the car unlocked and parked in the street, and it was still there in the morning. Does anyone think it’s my aura or my karma or something about me that keeps the thieves away or I have just been lucky?
Actually, yeah, it is a mystery that some women are groped dozens of times and some women, never. That is a bit mysterious. That doesn’t mean that the women who were groped did anything wrong, and it certainly doesn’t mean that the women who weren’t groped have a ‘magic posture’? Is that where some of the tension in this thread is coming from?? Do some posters think that the posters who haven’t been groped think they have something special about them that protects them? Geez.
If there is some reason that a groper chooses to grope a woman, IT IS ENTIRELY HIS FAULT FOR DOING SOMETHING AWFUL AND NOT HER FAULT AT ALL. I don’t care what the reason is in his head, IT IS NOT HER FAULT. Women who haven’t been groped aren’t better than those who have been.
Nevertheless, there is certainly something interesting about the fact that people can live in a busy city and have some constantly groped and some never groped. And wondering why that is is* okay.*
Although they probably did not mean it that way, some of the posters in this thread who’ve said they’ve never been groped did suggest that there was something about their bearing that kept gropers away.
Ok, but so what? What if they are right? What if there is something about the way a woman carries herself that makes some gropers pass her up. Does that mean that the women who have been groped deserve it? Of course not. They are still not at fault in any way for some creep touching them. If a woman feels that something about her presence is creep-away, that is her business. It doesn’t reflect on women who are being violated by awful men who may have any sick reasons at all for doing horrid things like groping.
If I am guessing, I am betting the answer to the mystery lies somewhere closer to some of us simply forgetting the gropes. Or extreme luck in some cases, yes. But if some woman feels empowered by holding her chin up, or feeling like she has magic posture or whateverthehell, I’m not going to give her shit for that.
Hell, if we really could make a strong correlation between posture and not getting groped, then let’s do that and teach that shit!
But I don’t think we can.
There may be different types of gropers, just as there are different types of rapists, and they probably use different criteria for picking out victims. So the “quick grope in a crowd” guys are probably more likely to pick a woman who looks like she will provide the response they want, whatever that is (looking visibly upset, maybe? Making a scene? I don’t know what these guys want). If this is the case, how a woman “carries” herself is probably a factor in whether she gets targeted in a particular crowd.
Whereas the ones who are obvious about it probably prey on women who are in no position to complain or make a fuss i.e. employees or pupils or other girls and women he is in a position of power over.
I think it was Robert Hare (of psychopath test fame) who describes an experiment in one of his books where several violent muggers where shown a video of people walking across a room, and asked to pick out the ones they would be most likely to attack. They all pretty much agreed on who the “best” victims were, and it wasn’t always the small women or the rich-looking people. Something about these people just screamed “I’m a good person to mugg” to muggers. Maybe gropers do something similar, at least some of them?
Never been groped as far as I remember BTW, although that is probably 100% luck.
I’ve tried Googling the subject but the returns were just so vast; so, I can’t give cites but I’m sure that over the years I’ve heard of the posture/stature/attitude thing when it comes to victims. I am in no way blaming the victim (I am a victim) and I feel that my ‘bearing’ might just attract a certain type of scum if he mistook my petite stature and my trusting nature as an easy target (surprise! They lost!). If I had been in the same place at the same time with the bearing of say, Brigitte Nielson or Grace Jones I probably wouldn’t have been targeted. There’s really nothing I can do about that since I’m tiny and non-threatening until I’m threatened - then the claws and teeth come out.
Well, you did ask “Do some posters think that the posters who haven’t been groped think they have something special about them that protects them?” While I doubt anyone meant to come across as saying “I’ve never been groped because I’m just so special”, several posters have said things that sound pretty similar to that. So yes, there are probably some posters who think the posters who haven’t been groped believe they have something special about them that protects them.
I don’t doubt that this is sometimes true, but I also don’t see any way a woman could know whether she’s never been groped because there’s something special about her that’s been scaring off potential gropers or if she’s just been lucky. There are some very bold gropers out there, and different gropers presumably have different motivations and criteria. Maybe some go for women they perceive as easy targets while some go for women they perceive as “uppity bitches who need to be taught a lesson” and others just go for whoever happens to be within arm’s reach while standing in a crowd. It seems unlikely that any one woman’s bearing would be kryptonite to all three of these.
There’s also some ambiguity as to what “counts” as being groped (does the groper have to be a stranger? do you have to be certain they did it deliberately? do they have to touch your butt/breasts/crotch or do other body parts like the shoulders or thighs count?), so some people may be dismissing incidents that others would consider groping.
Yup. Some women here seem to think they have magic posture. Not just a “This hasn’t happened to me,” but a “I’m going to pat myself on the back now because of my aura.” The word “aura” was actually used at least once.