This thread has reminded me of a situation that made me (male) acutely uncomfortable.
I was an MD working in the Multidisciplinary Breast Clinic (fondly known as the Non-English-Speaking Breast Pain Clinic, but that’s another story). One day I picked up the chart of a new patient and entered the exam room. Scene as follows:
Me: Ms XXX? (crosses to sink, washes hands)
Her: Yes.
Me. Hello. My name is Dr brossa. How are you? (crosses to patient to shake hands)
Her: … (Stares at my extended hand like it was covered in feces) A gentleman does not extend his hand to a lady.
Me: (sitting back down, nonplussed). Oh. I apologise. (looks at chart for a few seconds) I am going to have one of our nurses join us now.
Her: Is that necessary?
Me: Yes, ma’am, I believe that it is. We have just met and you have already impugned my character. At this point, I would be more comfortable with a third party present.
My point? I guess it is that although, as a man, I have not been consistently trained to see every man as a potential sexual predator, as a male doctor I have been trained to see every female patient as a potential psychotic hosebeast out to sue me for misconduct.
It’s not narrowminded to not like comments about your looks from strangers.
And it’s completely unfair to say that not liking unsolicited comments about your appearance from people who don’t even know you is like calling someone a child molester or freaking out on someone who says, “Hi.”
I’ve heard a lot about how men have to ask out many women before they will find a date and how they have to make themselves immune to rejection and not take it personally. A lot of men think that getting shot down is just part of the deal and so you have to learn to take it with a grain of salt and not let it discourage you, otherwise you’d never get up the guts to approach a woman. I think a lot of men get to the point where they can’t afford to care what an individual woman might prefer as a human being, they just know that there are only so many ways to make friendly contact without being invasive, so they think a compliment is one of the safest, since it’s like you’re offering them a gift in a way.
I can completely understand that if I had to approach men most of the time, and if they had the perfect right to tell me to get lost no matter how friendly I was trying to be, that I might lose interest in the finer points of what they don’t like about me. Especially if I had no way of knowing whether it was my face or what I said or just a general fear of my whole damn gender. And I can imagine that if I lived with that my whole life, then I’d think that surely in a situation where I’m clearly not trying to hit on someone I’d have more leeway to say whatever nice thing I’m thinking and just have it taken in the spirit intended. I might kind of expect that if I tell the bank teller she has nice eyes she should just take it for what it is and not start getting all thinky about it. And probably if she turned around and took it like I was trying to fuck her, I’d want to punch her in the nose. I mean I really would. This is why it’s really good I’m not a man, because that would make me pretty mad, really. Most of the time when I try to imagine what it’s like to be a guy I honestly don’t know how I’d fucking handle the constant insulting and uncharitable assumptions people make. I know that as a woman, if some guy assumed I wanted to fuck him just because I tried to be nice to him, I’d think he was an arrogant jerk. If on top of that he acted like I was sexually repulsive to him, I’d feel pretty shit. If the icing on the cake was that I actually kind of secretly would like to fuck him…Just imagining it makes me want to crawl under the bed and never talk to a man again. It seems like par for the course for any man who talks to women, at all. And don’t think I don’t think about all that when a strange guy gives me a compliment because I do. I don’t think guys have it easy at all. I honestly don’t know how so many men are so cheerful because if that even happened to me once, I’d be done. But it happens to my guy friends all the time and they seem to really take it in stride. But I can’t help think they have to give up a bit of consideration when that type of scenario is always right around the corner.
I kind of think the way guys manage to not all be bitter is that they come to a point where they have to just stop thinking about every nuance of every potential way they could be repulsing every individual woman and start to just say, “I’ll try my best and if she doesn’t like it there’s nothing I can do about it.”
Which is fine but if I’m going to be understanding about it and tolerant of it then I have to face the fact that there are an awful lot of complimenters out there who are just casting a lot of lines to see if anything bites and I can’t take it too personally. Maybe I really do have the face of an angel, or maybe I’m just ugly enough to be approachable. Who knows? On top of that, every time I leave the house I know people are critiquing my looks I have to take the bad with the good. Where would I be if I tried to take strange men’s opinions about my looks personally? If someone isn’t trying to hit on me, then what’s he telling me for? General feedback? At the very best he’s just passing the time of day, really. All it’s intended to do is be pleasant, but all it does is remind me that everyone is entitled to their opinion about how I look and to assume that I care about their opinion. Even if they don’t know me or care about me at all.
I don’t think I’ve ever been rude to a stranger who gives me a compliment on my looks but I probably don’t muster up much enthusiasm either because I’m really just trying to be tolerant and not jump to any particular conclusions. There are some times when probably people are hitting on me and I’m pretending they aren’t because I’m the one trying not to be presumptuous. On top of all that, if someone comes out and asks if I like it, I’m supposed to lie and say I’m grateful for it.
Some people like it and some people don’t and that’s why it’s good to wait til you know the first thing about someone before you try it. It’s not nice to turn things around and say that if a woman doesn’t like compliments from strangers it’s as if she’s accusing someone of being a child molester. A lot of women are just tryng their best to cope with their own situation too. It’s not as if I can freely go up to the 18 year old at the variety store and tell him, “that t-shirt looks good on you,” any time I want without expecting a little bit of potential for humiliating rejection. Or maybe he will be thinking, “why the hell would I care what you think?” Lots of people like to think women are just sitting around holding all the cards but it’s not that easy on the other side either.
Boobs have always been precious to me. I esteem them far higher than gold or diamonds.
Fragility isn’t the point.
Mom doesn’t count. Yes, they are boobs. But seeing as how I fed from them, and then used them as pillows and headrests for a few years, I don’t really see them in sexual terms.
I avoid boobsquishing for two reasons. I don’t want the woman I’m hugging to think that I am hugging her tightly just so that I can feel her boobs against me. I’ve never had a female friend accuse me of this. But, I have heard them say it about other men.
Secondly, if I feel that sexual or romantic feelings on my part are not a good idea, I want to avoid feeling her boobs against my chest. EG A hot woman we were both interested in has started dating a close friend. I grab my feelings for her and stuff them in the ‘she’s involved with a friend’ closet. Feeling her boobs press against me threatens to open that closet.
brossa, she didn’t think you were a predator, just that your mama didn’t bring you up right.
Anyway, your patient was out of date. To refer yet again to Miss Manners, gentlemen or ladies may offer their hands first in a business setting. (She also thinks it’s the height of rudeness to comment on someone else’s supposed faux pas.)
If she doesn’t say that, then good. It was the impression I got of what she said from third parties.
Also I missunderstood this quote
“…Miss Manners is disturbed by your reference to the compliments of strangers. Strangers have no business commenting on one’s looks one way or the other. A truly harmless stranger–say, an old lady who says, “My, you’re a pretty thing,” before she thinks about it–may be acknowledged with a slight bow of the head and a distant smile. A strange man who makes such a comment should be pointedly ignored.”
I thought she was meaning that any comment about looks should be pointedly ignored if it comes from a strange man. I agree that “My, you’re a pretty thing” is too agressive/potentially insulting to be said to an unknown person.
But feel Miss Manners would be wrong if saying “That’s a nice hat” to an unknown stranger who just happens to be wearing a hat you like, is impolite or rude. If it wasn’t a completely neutral situation, say in the workplace for example, then even commenting on a nice hat is inapropriate since it would potentially be giving the message that clothing is more important than the work at hand (unless you are doing buisness with a milliner).
Note that I am carefully leaving out the relative genders or sexual orientations of the people involved. I’ve commented on men’s apparel almost as often as womens whne I find it stylish/interesting/and worthy of praise.
Most people can tell the difference between a full-body hug that includes boob-squishing and a hug that involves creepy sex-rubbing. It’s too bad you can’t have boob-smooshing without fearing you’re sexualizing it.
My nieces & nephews have mashed my balls so many times I almost reflexively guard them when one of them comes hurtling at me. But for heaven’s sake, sometimes they’re just family jewels, not sex organs.
Well, yes. And perhaps I exaggerate-I don’t mind a compliment such as, “Oh, I love your skirt!” or “That’s a really pretty necklace!” That’s fine and welcome.
It’s more people who decide to start gushing all over me, and try to get my life story at the bus stop. Such as, “Gee, you’re really pretty-so where are you headed to? Do you come here often? What’s that you’re reading? Is it any good?” Who basically start slobbering all over me, despite the fact that I’m reading a book or whatever.
Or maybe it’s comments on what I’m wearing versus my physical attributes. I’d be more comfortable with, “Oh, what a lovely bracelet!” as opposed to “You have really pretty eyes.” I can’t explain it, but somehow the former feels less personal than the latter.
As far as touching-that’s a no no. I am NOT a touchy feely person, except with my friends. If you’re a friend, yes, I will hug you. If you’re not-keep away!
levdrakon-sometimes boobsquish HURTS. I don’t speak for all women, but I don’t like to have my breasteses smashed-it’s painful.
Here’s the deal with Miss Manners and why people “hate” her and her ideas:
People take random statements she has made and repeat them without taking any context into effect. They throw together 10 statements from 10 different letters from 10 different people in 10 different situations, lump them all together, and then declare, “Well Miss Manners said THIS!”
In the example you provided, for one, she was telling the letter-writer - who said she was a *modest 15-year-old girl *- that she need not respond to strange unknown GROWN MEN making comments to her on the street. Can anyone disagree with this? Does anyone who disagrees with Miss M overall (which is fine, it’s your opinion) say that no, 15-year-old modest girls who have said they are almost SCARED by these remarks, are “overreacting” and should be “polite” to these strange men and give a nice answer to them because not ALL men intend bad things on her?
Second, if anyone were to send such a question to Miss Manners as “Do I have to talk to strange men who approach me on the street?” Miss Manners would respond like this:
(With my apologies to Miss Manners for stealing her style. But it’s an accurate reflection of her, which is more than I can say for most of the people who have maligned her here.)
Perhaps, but it’s a bit of a distinction without a difference, since I was about to ask her questions about her sexual history and then proceed to do a breast exam. If she was offended by my attempt to touch her hand, how might she react when I tried to touch her breasts?
Yes, I did. I did not have the luxury of inviting her to seek her medical care from another provider, and I thought that smacking her in her greasy gob and crowing ‘How do you like me now?!’ would result in all kinds of trouble. Having a nurse in the room is SOP for the physical exam anyway. Frankly, all I think that I did was to point out to her that, rudenesswise, we were now equal and protect myself from a person that was giving off a seriously bad vibe.
From the few columns I’ve read, and from her appearance on a talk show, I agree that Miss Manners gets a bum rap. On the talk show (Letterman, Conan, I don’t remember) she promoted her new book and said ‘People think I talk about remembering which fork to use, or how to act at high tea. That isn’t manners. Manners are things that make everyday life easier and more pleasant for everybody.’
One of the columns I’ve read was a letter wondering what was the polite way to ask a pregnant friend who the father was. Miss Manners responded ‘There is no polite way. If she hasn’t told you, it’s none of your business. The polite thing to do is mind your own business’.
brossa: you give all doctors who have ever had a female patient who was nervous or scared upon having a breast or GYN exam done by a doctor - male or female - a reason for the invention of Sensitivity Training.
. . . still speechless . . .
Oh, in case you are unaware, a couple of your editorial comments about the type of patients and clinic this took place at are coming off as bordering-on-racist. You might want to watch out for that. In case you are unaware. I am sure you meant nothing of the sort.
No kidding! Makes me glad I have good insurance. I feel really sorry for people who have to go to clinics where people view them in such a negative light.
See now you have responded to Vin Deisels wife’s overreaction with your own overreaction. While her response to your attempt to shake hands was a little off, the appropriate response from you would have been simply to state that you generally have a nurse assist you like it were no big thang. Instead you made a point to make it known that your “character was impugned”.
I’m perfectly ok with the miss manners advise that it’s fine to barely acknowledge or ignore a strange guy. A lot of guys if you give them the slightest indication, they will hound you constantly.
Perhaps. But it seemed to me at the time (and still does now) that she was specifically choosing to be insulting, within seconds of my walking through the door. I base this opinion on her contemptuous expression, her tone, etc. I know how to deal with patients who are afraid of doctors or exams, but this woman was just viper mean right off the bat. I was not going to stand for that, any more than I would stand for a patient making a pass at me. She set off my ‘danger!’ radar, I called her on it, and I brought in a third party to supervise the interaction. I would say that my intiution about which patients are potential ‘trouble’ is at least as advanced as my wife’s (also an MD) intuition about which men on the bus are potential ‘trouble’.
If a female doctor goes into a male patient’s room and he says “A lady wouldn’t wear a dress like that”, should she be insulted? Perhaps call him on his comment? Bring in a third party immediately? Assume for the sake of the argument that he is paralyzed and presents no physical threat to her whatsoever.