It was this thread, bro. It’s like twenty posts up.
Never made it into the professional ranks, although I was one of the top amateurs in my state back in high school. Not to brag or anything, but I was training for the Olympics where not only was doping permitted, it was encouraged. Oh that was doping the women, and only in the date rape event. Never mind. We did have a few competitors who would actually offer to shake the women judges’ hands, but that was viewed as too far over the line, even in the World Cup.
Judging from the replies in this thread, you can’t be on that many people’s ignore list.
This is pretty much my view.
In answer to the OP, how I feel when I “catch” a man looking at me depends a lot on what kind of day I’ve had and how many other people have been staring at me that day/week/month. Generally, I’ll feel uncomfortable and slightly on edge for a while afterwards, especially if I’ve had several similar interactions recently.
If I’m in a particularly good mood, I might (rarely!) be flattered, but more often than not, it will annoy me and creep me out a bit. (Even if you’re definitely not being threatening while you’re admiring me, I don’t know you’ll stay that way if I don’t smile back, or ignore you looking at me. And I don’t like total strangers passing judgment on my body/hair/clothes - which is all that can be, given that you don’t know me - even if they’re being positive. Being judged isn’t fun.)
You are brilliant. Thank you.
I’ve said this before, but I always extend my hand first. Women before me worked damn hard, got arrested and beaten and probably raped, so that I could stand up tall in the office and be the equal of any man. Every time I shake hands with a man and he treats me like just another colleague, that’s a BFD to me. I don’t crow over it or anything but I want to have my hand shaken. I’m just as capable as anyone else, despite my vagina. 
I don’t think you get enough appreciation around here. You a funny guy. : shakes hand :
Women worked damn hard, got arrested, beaten, and raped so that there were professions OTHER than prostitution that they could have a successful income earning career in. Whenever a man sticks out a hand unbidden to me or throws a tantrum because I won’t let him touch me, it lets me know he doesn’t respect my right to be an respectable career woman or probably even my right to walk through the building without a body guard. It lets me now that I am just a vagina to him, something for his physical gratification and enjoyment. I have never associated it was equality. Equality is based respect.
Not all people are you. Based on the responses from women on this board and in real life that I’ve spoken to, I am far more likely to offend if I don’t offer a handshake to a woman I meet than if I do. Since I want to do whatever is necessary to minimize the chance of offending a woman when I meet or am introduced, I must offer a handshake when I meet a woman for the first time. Of course, I wouldn’t force a handshake, and they are free to not shake my hand (and I won’t throw a tantrum if they don’t). But in my mission to not offend women, statistically, offering a handshake is my best course of action.
You do realize that they offer the same hand, in the same way, to men, as well? In current American society, a handshake is not a sexual gesture.*
Now, if you don’t want to shake his hand, you don’t have to. And while he might be quietly offended by that, he certainly shouldn’t throw a tantrum. But I can guarantee you that when a man offers a handshake to you and every other stranger in the room, male and female, he isn’t trying to touch your hand just because you have a vagina.
I don’t know how you decline, but if you murmur some excuse (“my people don’t do that, sorry” or “I prefer not to touch unrelated men”) when you decline to take his offered hand, it might be taken better. I dunno. I’m sorry you have it so rough, but I don’t want your difficulties to prevent me from having peer relationships with men, which is something I value.
- Twice in my life I’ve had someone offer a handshake that did have a sexual component. One time, a guy wanted to flirt. The other time, a woman wanted to show my how a different guy was harassing young women in the group. So I know that a handshake CAN have a sexual component. But I have never run into that in a business setting.
This ( and other responses as well.)
When a man offers his hand to anyone, male or female, that is equality. ZPG , you are the one injecting sexuality into the situation. Unless you believe that same man is planning on raping the men in the room too.
That isn’t to say that some people can’t inject a sexual component into any gesture, handshake included. But to take as the default that any man extending is his hand is tantamount to viewing you as a prostitute…well, perhaps the problem isn’t the extremely common gesture, but rather the woman who feels that clasping hands momentarily is reducing her to a sex worker. Have some respect for yourself. See yourself as an equal, and stop believing that any interaction must be sexual.
I’m not sure why I should respond to you, or why anyone should. I understand your point of view but you aggressively refuse to understand mine or anyone else’s. I can walk a mile in your shoes and see out of your eyes but you willfully refuse to do the same. I don’t intend to explain myself to you anymore.
Actually, politely asking a woman if she shakes hands before making any sort of demanding gesture is your best course of action. That way you risk offending no one.
Whenever I walk a mile in your shoes, I see someone willing to do whatever it takes including betraying other women to please men and that is a position I willfully refuse to ever give any validity to. Your freedom to be “one of the boys” shouldn’t come at the price of exposing other women to sexual exploitation. Maybe if some glorious, golden era arrives where there is no rape, no spousal battery, no sexual slavery or harassment, we can presume that every man has perfectly honorable intentions until then precautions have to be taken for the safety of everyone, not just the chosen few who get to be the “little buddy” or the team mascot.
Sure, but that’s ridiculous.
It’s a non-optional social convention that people - men or women - greet by shaking hands. In this society, that’s just the way it’s done. Asking permission first would be viewed as weird.
Having raised daughters, I have adopted this practice: if I’m tempted to do something that I wouldn’t want a guy my age doing to my daughter, then I don’t do it. So I’m not going to be leering at you since I wouldn’t want men leering at my girls. Sure, if someone wears a crotch level skirt or a transparent top, I’ll look a bit more but still, outright staring is rude no matter what someone is wearing. “When in doubt, don’t” will generally be the right rule to follow.
This is extremely offensive.
No, it would be viewed as polite. For most of human history, people only shook hands to signal coming to an agreement or establishing a bond. It’s only recently (since it became too longer possible to more aggressively sexually harass women in the workplace), that the men started trying to force women to shake their hands (Coincidence, I think not). We use to casually refer to African-Americans by a racial slur that’s now a firing offense in most work places. It was just the way it was done.
I find it extremely offensive when women put ingratiating themselves with men ahead of the safety and personal dignity of other women. If you want to touch every man you encounter, that’s between you and your spouse, but telling other women they must do the same in order to have a career or keep a job, is wrong.
Not based on the input of women in real life and on this forum – most women would be offended by such a question (and I have explicitly asked whether they would be offended if I asked permission, and most have said “yes”).
Since I want to minimize the chance of offending women, I am forced, statistically, to offer handshakes (without a demand, and without a tantrum if they choose not to shake) to women when I meet them, without asking first.
If I ever meet you in person I won’t do this. But from every other woman I’ve talked to, online and in real life, about this circumstance, the best way to minimize the chance of offense is to offer a handshake without asking.
I don’t want to offend women or make them feel uncomfortable, so I play the numbers based on reports and conversations in person and online. And with handshakes, the input is clear and overwhelming, from my discussions – the best way by far to minimize the chance of offending a woman in regards to handshake is to offer a handshake upon first meeting them without asking if it’s okay. That’s what the numbers tell me. It would be wholly irresponsible of me to take ZPG Zealot’s advice on this since that would result in me offending far, far more women.
You can shake my hand anytime. 
Even though apparently I am betraying my sisters by doing so. Did you hear that girls? I AM LETTING THE SIDE DOWN!
: sobs :
No, that would just be weird. You see, we have a social convention to ask people if they would like to shake your hand. It consists of reaching out your hand partway between you and the other person with your palm open, ready to accept their palm. It is a well known and well understood gesture.
You are allowed to decline, without being touched. Yes, it is unusual to decline. And as I said above, I think you will be better accepted if you offer the guy a reason why you are declining, so he understands that it is something unusual about you, and not that you are singling him out for social rejection.
No, it would be viewed as weird. I would wonder about a guy who asked me that, and tell my husband about the strange interaction I had at work, and if it were an important or powerful person, I would fear that he viewed me as a foreign being, not as an ordinary colleague.
And I think your history of handshakes is wrong. Business people in the US have certainly shaken hands upon being introduced since the 50s, probably earlier. I guess that’s a form of establishing a bond, but it is a weak bond, and a non-sexual one. Yes, they also shook hands to seal a deal. They still do, sometimes. I have certainly shaken men’s hands at work since the 80s.