There is a concept, made famous by a psychologist who specialized in winning influence over others, known as “social proof.” This stipulates that we partly base our judgement of others on the wider social opinion of that person.
If your girl friend sees you interacting positively with another female, and that the other female is clearly showing interest, this will act as social proof that you are a worthy mate.
Of course, I would recommend the OP be very subdued in his flirtatious banter with the waitress. The key is to get your girl friend to notice your competence in dealing with the opposite sex.
He believes her original answer may have changed. The only way to know is to read her body language in a potentially intimate situation, and make a move if there is evidence she is open to the idea.
If he does not make his interest clear, then he will remain in the friend zone. Forcing her to decide whether she wants to pursue a relationship or not is the only way to get a definitive answer.
Imagine my surprise when typing “social proof” into Google makes the autocomplete come up with “social proof PUA” :rolleyes: Funny how “pickup artist” is the first thing I think of when someone calls women “females” and uses the term “friendzone.”
The Wikipedia definition of “social proof” is: “Social proof, also known as informational social influence, is a psychological phenomenon where people assume the actions of others in an attempt to reflect correct behavior for a given situation. This effect is prominent in ambiguous social situations where people are unable to determine the appropriate mode of behavior, and is driven by the assumption that surrounding people possess more knowledge about the situation.” That just means that humans are wired to follow the leader when they don’t know what to do and others seem to, right or wrong.
When a woman (I’m one of those, so let’s assume I know what I’m talking about ok?) is on a date, she doesn’t care if he’s competent when it comes to dealing with “females.” She wants to know that he’s interested in her. It’s confusing and hurful if he starts hitting on another woman. She wonders if she’s that boring/unattractive that she can’t keep his attention. She doesn’t want to know if society thinks he’s a suitable mate, she is trying to decide if he’s a suitable mate for her.
And anyway Shakes didn’t get “friendzoned” because he accepted her refusal and moved on with his life and to me seems happy enough to have her as a casual work friend. There is no need to “force” her to decide on him one way or the other. If she has changed her mind there is nothing stopping her from approaching him. If she doesn’t want to date him or doesn’t want to upset the apple cart that’s her decision to make and that’s fine too.
I’m sorry for interrupting this thread with this but I have a daughter who is just entering her boy-crazy phase and knowing that she will have to learn to deal with crap like this the hard way just really frosts me :mad:
I also share a distaste for people who willfully engage in psychological manipulation. All I wanted to do was share my opinion on the best course of action for the OP. If I thought he was a womanizing scumbag, then I wouldn’t offer advice.
It never hurts to showcase your ability to engage the opposite sex. Trying to get out of the friend zone is augmented by showing your friend that you are sexually desirable. She needs to stop seeing him as just friend material.
I’m sure your daughter will fare well in the awful world of dating. If you raised her well, to appreciate what makes a good person, then she will know to toss aside the scumbags like myself.
I think it’s great that gender relations are becoming more up front.
People should be free to say “no” and have that respected.
I’m waiting for the next step—when people are free to say “yes” whenever they want.
This “don’t dip your pen in the company ink” nonsense is mediaeval. Companies don’t own their employees. Consensual activity should not be the company’s or your co-workers’ business.
Then I would say the level of subtlety depends on the sobriety level of the people involved.
If spacy enough that plausible deniability could be brought up: confusing.
If sober enough that plausible deniability could not be brought up: subtle.
Tuxie’s response brought something else to mind. The dating game is one of matching: women who like to be chased will be well-matched with chasers (then again there is always the risk that he’ll like the hunt more than he likes the target), women who are straightforward will be well-matched with guys who don’t like headgames. The problems arise when a chaser refuses to understand that the “target” is not leading him on, when she says no it means no.
Well… I’m of two minds about it. If I was given a “No thank you” I personally would not approach the woman again unless she gave some fairly overt indicator of interest. However, it’s not all that unusual for women to change their minds if circumstances change. In my workplace, which is sales oriented, if they have the talent and work ethic a person can go from a newbie to a successful producer over the course of year or two. I have seen more than one scenario where this has kindled potential dating interest in the up and coming person that was not present then they started.
This is not to say women are mercenary, but they are sensitive (for very necessary and practical reasons) to a man’s social and peer status and his stock can rise or fall over time depending on his success and how others view him. In this context it’s not completely out of the question that approaching a woman a second time on a casual inquiry basis (if circumstances have changed) might get you a better reception. And frankly some women (not all) do admire a degree of polite persistence in a man as a positive character trait, but you have to have enough common sense in these situations to know then you’ve reached the end of the road.
The best thing to do is engage her in some innocuous open ended conversation about something she is interested in. If you get no positive indicators whatsoever beyond simple politeness it’s time to climb down off your horse.
The explanation, or lack thereof, can be a big clue though.
No - with no explanation means no.
No, I have plans Friday night, but I’d love to some other time - that means find another time.
In between you have a lot of no’s that could be “I’d be interested in you but” or “I’m not interested you, but it wouldn’t matter anyway because.” These include “I don’t date coworkers” or “I have a boyfriend.” If you get one of those responses, and then establish a friendship and the circumstances change, indicating you would still be interested in a non creepy way might get you a date. If you merely lurk and leer at her for four years until you quit or she dumps her boyfriend, and then call her up with “hey, we don’t work together anymore, wanna fuck” you probably won’t get a date.
Have you tried chasing her to the airport and getting her kicked off her flight? Then you aren’t trying hard enough!
So the system works!
According to “PUA” theory, this is the desired effect of this behavior. The purpose is to put you, the woman, on the defensive (or offensive?). Basically the idea is you go into the date trying to decide if he’s a suitable mate for you. The implication is that he is there to impress you. By acting like a little bit of a jerk, he is trying to turn the tables so you feel self conscious and worry about having to impress him.
It’s actually common behavior theory with the military, HR departments, cults, pretty much anyone trying to manipulate people to conform to a particular way of thinking. You create a lofty goal to aspire to, continually beat down people who aspire to it, then give them little token rewards to make them feel like they are moving closer to that goal.
It could make a difference how you asked her out the first time.
e.g. In my own case, I prefer a casual style where I invite her to some kind of event or class, and imply that I am going whether or not she wants to join me.
With this kind of invite it’s fine to have a second go IMO, because she’s probably forgotten your first invite, it was so casual.
The other alternative, is if you know she’s super into [whatever] and you’ve found there’s a [whatever] event coming up soon, then it might be worth trying again.
Even here though I personally would just test the waters…“Hey did you hear there’s a [whatever] event this Saturday? I’m thinking of going…”.
If she suggests joining you, or looks really disappointed that she can’t go, then you may have a chance. Anything else, forget it.
Yeah I know all this sounds quite passive / indirect but it works well enough for me
Since few of us make our debuts to society, attending balls where suitable young fellows will be paraded before us, we need other ways of finding mates. (Of course, many of us come from backgrounds where just finding somebody in the next holler who was not hideous & not a first cousin was enough.)
We spend many of our waking hours at work & meet people there. If somebody is not in your chain of command, it’s generally OK to express an interest. Once. Ignoring a rebuff from a coworker can lead to harassment charges. If the lady the OP mentioned changes her mind–or if her circumstances change–she knows he’s interested. The ball is in her court.
If a relationship blossoms & then goes south, it needs to remain “not the business” of anybody else at work. No weeping in the ladies’ room. No drama in meetings. No bringing guns to work…
Yeah I don’t know that I ever worked at any company of significant size where there wasn’t some level of employee dating. Particularly consulting firms where there are lots of young people who make good money, work long hours and spend a lot of time at remote client sites. Half of those companies are run like frat houses anyway. And there are always at least several married couples working there together.
Which of course raises the question of when is it time in a relationship to share a hotel room when on the road at a client? Yes, I do love you. But I just love my Starwood Preferred Guest points a bit more.
One of my friends works at a company where 2 people took a trip and only turned in one hotel room. They were boss and employee and up to that point nobody had suspected they were sleeping together. After a brief investigation both were fired because of the conflict of interest.
On the other hand a company I worked at back in 2000 had a couple of people who openly slept around when out on the road. Dating in the office was rampant as well. The company tolerated it, but as you mentioned above, it had a bit of an old school fraternity style to the management and high turnover.
Exactly. In my case, I did actually like Mike from the beginning and gave a reason, more or less, to let him know that if circumstances changed, I would be open to reconsideration. Had I not cared one way or the other, I would have just said no without explaination (and I actually did this with several other coworkers at that job).
And the problem is that you can control your behavior. But when your former sweetheart makes your relationship, or lack thereof, a problem at work - you’ll find that when its a consensual relationship between peers, they don’t usually spend a lot of time looking for the guilty party. At the very least, its a CLM if your former sweetie turns into a nutjob. At the worst, both of you will be let go for your lack of judgement.
