I have come to the conclusion that there is no one answer to this question, because each person is different, and has different perceptions and problems. In my own case, I was completely oblivious to female signals, as I’ve said before (and as my wife keeps pointing out to me – about other women’s signals, not hers). The advice people gave me – much of it repeated above – was frustratingly useless. I did join in activities (including dance classes). I did not project desperation, and tried various levels of eagerness. I made efforts to be sociable and get involved with other people. I was “just being myself”.
None of this helped. A big part of the problem was that I was in a situation where there weren’t make women to begin with*. And my friends (“Go out with your friends! People tend to meet people in groups!” they said) didn’t seem to know any women. Even girlfriends and wives of friends who were always bemoaning that “there weren’t any good guys available out there” usually couldn’t actually produce one of these women when challenged. (And the few dates set up with such women turned out pretty dismally)
In my own case, I think that the advice AClockwork Melon and Elysium brought up would have been immensely helpful. It isn’t that I lacked confidence – it’s that I think I have been effectively taught that it was crass and would be a turn-off to explicitly imply sexual interest in a woman, so i didn’t. Yet that, of course, is exactly what is called for.
The point is, YMMV, and your particular stumbling-block may be different.
*the Ph.D. programs in physics, in most universities, don’t have a lot of women. Who knew? There were more of them in the engineering programs, but not a lot more.
It’s Elysian - there is an Elysium who joined well after me, but different person entirely.
And thanks - when I read the OP I was a little shocked he was taking girls he liked to coffee shops and then wondering why they weren’t interested. Duh, it’s a coffee shop, I take my mother to coffee shops. Guys who have taken me to coffee shops are almost always my friends. There’s something wholesome about coffee shops.
Restraurants, however, are great first dates, especially little middle eastern or Spanish ones where you share dishes.
Just to add a cherry of wisdom on top of the sundae of truth I’ve already provided- don’t put the pussy on a pedestal. 99% of men act as if they’ve got to impress the women they date. They become apologizing douche bags that everyone, man and woman alike, hates.
Plus, spending an hour or two holding women! What’s not to like? Seriously, ballroom or latin dancing lessons are a great idea - I can’t believe how easy it is to impress a crowd by doing some basic salsa or merengue steps. We can never waltz properly, though, because people always crowd up the dance floor during waltzes and just stand there rocking from foot to foot.
ETA: If you can dance properly, you now have another avenue of expressing romantic interest - asking women to dance at Christmas parties, etc.
This. I was like this when younger. I know many like this now.
In short…
Stop being covert and stop taking shit. Women are people - treat them as such. If they don’t have anything to offer you and/or are unwilling to offer it to you…stop wasting your time.
I know this sounds ‘mean’ but it isn’t. Brickers refutation of the girls friend comment is a good example. he didn’t take shit and he was being clear.
One thing nice guys need to get over is that you are going to be rejected. You are going to be rejected frequently. Who cares. Just keep at it going for what YOU want. {Actually, I think this gets at what phouba said - that being rejected for a nice guy is like being cheated. Hell no - she doesn’t want you so forget it - now keep on with going for what you want.}
Actually, I have been married for many years now and so my memory is fuzzy…
About rejection. One of the best ways is to not be rejected.
Asking for a phone number is a great way to not be rejected. Ask for her phone number and shut up. She will either give it to you or she won’t or will ask why or somesuch. If she doesn’t give it to you it’s not like she rejected YOU Well a little easier on the ego anyway.
If she gives it to you…fine. If she doesn’t (like asks why) just say nevermind and get on with your life. For those thinking this is extreme I call BS. She knows why. Her answer is just no but she doesn’t want to say it.
OP - practice this. Ask for phone numbers of even women you are not interested in…so you get used to it. Ask for least one phone number every 3-4 days. It isn’t hard…here is an algorithm:
See girl. Make eye contact and smile. Does she smile back? If no, forget it.
She smiles back - strike up a conversation over anything. Heck, just say “Hi, what is your name?”. Does she respond back?
If she responds back, does she ask for your name back? If no, forget it.
If she gives her name, have a brief (and I mean BRIEF) conversation about anything. Then ask for her number.
Also, learn how to flirt. It’s not hard, and it need not be in any way sleazy. Think of it as a feedback form of communication. If you move a bit closer to her, make eye contact a lot - does she also seem to want to do the same? Does she seem genuinely interested in talking to you and not merely in being polite? If so, that gives you some information - she is at least open to the possibility. If you have a good feeling about it, simply ask if she’d be interested in going on a date. Make it clear you mean a date, not just hanging out like any buddy. Worst case? She says no. All that means is, you haven’t wasted lots of time, hers and yours.
[Actually the worst case is she says yes, you date, you have sex, and later it turns out she’s a psycho … but let’s not go there! :D]
Key is not projecting desperation. It is hard, I know, if you are not getting any. The correct attitute here is that you find her very attractive and would very much like to get to know her better, but if she’s not interested, no biggie.
What exactly do you mean by this? Sure, I’ll probably kiss a guy I’m interested in within that timeframe, but no way in hell would I get naked with him in such a short amount of time. I need to know you to trust you, and I need to trust you to sleep with you. Trust comes from seeing someone behave consistently over a period of time; that ain’t happening in just 4 dates.
…and the thing is, if you’re both being respectful and behaving like adults, you probably won’t wreck it, anyway. You say you’re interested, she says she’s not, you accept it gracefully – and there’s no reason why you can’t both shrug it off and continue on as before. (And if, for whatever reason, she can’t/won’t act like an adult about it, she probably isn’t good friend material anyway.)
Of course “accepting it gracefully” is also a key point here. I’ve been on both sides of this, and remaining friends was not, in fact, all that difficult – except for the time the guy basically freaked out about it (alternately “okay with it”, clingy, and despising me by turns – we haven’t spoken since). Yet I’m still friends with another guy who turned me down when I asked him out, some 10-odd years later.
It doesn’t have to be intercourse, but for mature adults, it’d best be beyond a chaste closed lips kiss by the 3rd or 4th date. No offense intended, but (and I can only speak from my perspective) I’ve generally found that women holding back from being intimate based on trust issues are huge wastes of time with respect to pursuing serious and fulfilling relationships, and the “trust” issue is simply a fig leaf for other issues. Most of the time a woman throwing up a “trust issue” card means they they do not find the man particularly attractive, but they like the male attention they are receiving. If a woman finds a man compelling, interesting and attractive “trust” issues tend to get sorted out very quickly.
What wrecks friendships is not being turned down, it is being accepted.
It is simply very difficult for most people to have “casual” sex with a good long-term friend, or to date in the light-hearted manner one can with a comparative stranger. There is too much history, too much at stake. In my experience, such affairs tend to either be torrid and turbulent, or morph quickly into hardcore monogamous-type relationships. In either case, the “friendship” is over. It is usually not possible to simply decide it was a mistake and go back to being just friends.
That being said, I’m sure some people have done it. To my mind, it is simply not a risk worth taking, unless you are really interested in a serious hardcore monogamous relationship with this person. There are other fish in the sea whose pursuit does not endanger valuable and possibly irreplaceable friendships.
I did end up dating a guy I’d been friends with eleven years. We’ve been married going on fifteen years. But when we started dating it went from dating to moving in very quickly - in fact, he moved in before the first date. We were pretty sure by the time we started dating that we were well suited, the issue had really been that there had always been other people involved (I’d been married, when I divorced, he had a girlfriend).
So it isn’t that moving into the “friend zone” is irrevocable. The question is why are you in the “friend zone.” In our case, it was twofold - early on we were fun, but immature people who would have been a poor match for anything other amusing our friends with the train wreck…later we were mature people who wouldn’t cheat on our significant others.
A quick thanks for all the replies for now. Short because I have voved to get enough sleep. I appreciate that candid != unkind BTW.
phouka Agree on ‘nice guy’ mindset and sense of entitlement being corrosive to the soul and to be avoided at all cost.
This is a bit of an alien concept to me - is being shot down really a concern to women? I ask because I have several times I have sat with women (friends or in one case sisters to each other) who complained about unwanted attention or ridiculed someone’s interest (I cringed inwardly), but OTOH I have never heard from men (even from the worst braggards) about unwelcome interest from women. From my small sample women but not men seem to resent it.
BTW today a female colleague jocularly alleged my being gay - WTF?
Women dislike UNWANTED attention, but they fear rejection from people they want attention from just as much as men do. Maybe more because women are supposed to be able to get sex anytime they want it.
The message is, in paraphrase, that you don’t seem sexually interested in women - that is, you are careful not to communicate your interest to them.
I assume because you fear that such communication would be unwelcome or ridiculed.
It may be a hopeful sign, that this colleague wants or looks forward to such a communication. Try replying “wanna test that theory? I’m available Friday” or some such.
Yeah, the way having sex with friends ends well, when it ends well.
To my mind though, having actual friends isn’t a “friends zone” thing: that more describes a relationship in which one or both people really want a romantic-type relationship, but are stimied in some way.
You sound like me a few years back. Borderline Nice Guy, depressive, bitter, and lacking confidence. That’s a harsh picture, but not completely off the mark. How did I change? I dunno… I’m still far from a confidence-exuding Lothario. I graduated college, made new friends, started exercising (although failing recently), and generally just enjoyed being myself more. I also got over some things that had been making me depressed, and that helped x 1 million.
I wonder; maybe you could do an experiment. Try over-compensating towards the flirty spectrum. Eye-contact, hand-holding, compliments, jokes, etc. If you get creeped-out responses, you know you’ve gone too far. It might be an effective way though of getting you to test flirting out. You’d be surprised what is and what isn’t sometimes.
Uh…yeah. One of my friends asked a guy to dance in middle school and he said no, and she’s still dealing with the angst. Another of my friends asked her guy friend out on a date, and he smacked her down flat. She’s still friend with him but I talked her while she cried. Another asked a guy to prom and he laughed and said no way. That girl didn’t care and giggled about it after, but there you go.
Why do you think there are so many stories of women saying “oh, I liked you years ago but never said anything”? It’s because we’re shit scared of rejection. Some of us don’t even try, we’re so scared of it.
So when you take a girl to a coffee house and she thinks “yeah, it’s friends, isn’t it” there’s a, I’d say, 85% chance you’re never going to get hit on no matter how hot she is for you.
Well a little easier on the ego anyway.