Ladies, what are your opinions on "Having it all", baby/career/marriagewise?

In My Humble Opinion
21

You have to make choices for everything in life - the more you stack up important issues, the harder the choices between issues will be. But yes, it is possible to have a career, marriage, and kids, sometimes, for some people, some careers, some marriages, some kids. My MIL did it very well, but she also made career compromises during different ages (of her kids). So did FIL. My mom did school and work and kids and therapy at once, and while she didn’t succeed as well on the kids end of it, I dare say that she was ill-prepared for it by her parents (the source of the therapy). But have a special-needs kid, and priorities shift to match the situation. Have a career change, and priorities shift again. Get divorced or married, and priorities shift yet again.

epeepunk and I both have careers. I make a lot more than he, and probably always will. He quit his job to stay home with our eldest, and we later sent our second to the wonderful daycare provider we found when daddy went back to work the first time. I commute a long way, but work from home when I can. Lots of juggling, and the house isn’t in great shape, but both of us work on it, and share parental duties and housework (he does more of the latter than I), and very much enjoy our lives almost all the time. Not superwoman, just willing to put my effort where my priorities are.

Age, money-earning-potential, mostly. Marriage was always and only an issue of finding the right person, not something to be put off or chosen based on timing or age or money or career. Took me a bit to find him, so started on kids later than hoped. Took me a bit to find the right career, too. Juggled finances and family-starting and ended up having our first a year later than hoped (31). Now I’m pushing 37, so want to go for our last child ASAP, which is sooner than we ‘should’ for various reasons (I’d like to have saved more, for instance). Juggle, juggle, trade, and compromise. But generally happy, and my childless friends just juggle, trade, and compromise on different issues - car, bigger house, health issues. Life has all sorts of complications, and not all of them have to do with a combination of marriage and career and kids.

Not really - I already knew all that, ages ago. I actually looked at the research numbers, and realized in my 20’s that my odds of healthy conception declined dramatically at 35. I wanted all our kids to be born by now, but miscarriages intervened, and so our first two are farther apart than ‘planned’ - meaning I’m aiming for number three later than planned. Not planning any beyond that, though. And not actually trying for number three just yet. So, age wasn’t a new factor. Healthy successful pregnancy (that is, events-outside-my-control) was more of a factor.

I guess I’d say that life always has compromises. It is trickier if you have multiple things on your HIGH priority list. Marriage, career, and kids are all high-priority items for most people. If you can’t make the three balance out, then one or more has to go. Career usually goes first (either completely or becomes less of a priority). :shrug: That’s life.

22

Addressing just the issue of married couples, the elusive notion of “having it all” is possible (in theory) for the relatively small cohort of women who make fairly high level incomes and have high earning spouses. Money will give you access to all sorts of lifestyle supports and time freedom. At the other end of the spectrum from the dual high earner couple scenario there are couples with relatively low paying jobs where neither spouse earns much money and both must work, and if kids are involved this is a very high pressure scenario.

For everyone else in the vast middle class of married, working mothers, as other posters have noted, real world decisions about priorities and compromises have to be made. In practical terms a good deal of where the married, harried, middle class working mother winds up has to do with decisions she has made about what the priorities in her life are. In the end, the issue is less about having it all and more about wanting it all.

People who choose to live at or near the maximal resource consumption levels that a dual income will provide, or are determined to stretch to maintain a given socio-economic status for themselves are often under tremendous financial pressure. It is a hard fact that in most (not all) married couples women are the primary driving force behind most of the resource consumption decisions regarding peer level appropriate houses and lifestyles etc. (although the husband may negotiate these deals).
I have heard married, working mothers complain bitterly about their harried schedules and how nice it would be to stay at home like Dr./Lawyer/Indian Chief X’s wife does because her husband can provide for everything. If I suggest they might possibly be able to stay at home too if they get a less expensive house or not buy that new car or etc. etc., I receive puzzled stares as if I am making Xhosa clicking sounds. It is literally incomprehensible to them that they should make a decision to have a smaller and more affordable house or keep an older car, or live at more moderate level in any way, shape or form in order to be a stay at home mother. Part of this is peer pressure, but a significant component is due to concrete decisions women make about what their priorities are. Wants become needs and by God no one had better tell them that their wants are not essential.

It is not true in every case by any means, but there is a substantial population of married women living exhausted, frenzied lives who could stay at home with their young children if they were willing to make lifestyle adjustments and downsize their lifestyles a notch or two so that they could stay at home. In this balance of sacrifices children get caught in the middle spending the bulk of their formative years being warehoused at extremely early ages in large groups and raised in quasi-institutional settings by non-familial caretakers, while parents salve their consciences with notions that this will help the child “socialize” better and it will all even out with a “quality time” story at bedtime.

There are parents who are at wits end because of circumstances but there are quite a few others that are there by design. If we could measure success by how well we raise our children instead of how big and well appointed their bedrooms are a lot of these issues would cease to be so problematic.

23

Astro, I take exception with how you use “woman/women” and “parent” interchangeably in your post. Why do you assume that is the woman in the relationship who needs to readdress her priorities and make lifestyle adjustments so she could stay at home? Should it not be the woman AND the man in the relationship BOTH detemining and making these “lifestyle adjustments” that you speak of?

I know that featherlou put the disclaimer that she wasn’t trying to get anyone to defend their choices and she asked some very interesting questions, but it appears some people, like astro, would rather get up on their soapbox. So, with that, since the box has been pulled out, I’ll get up on it and say, I believe these issues of “Superwoman” will never truly go away until our society comes to the realization that juggling a career/family/home falls not only to women but also to men. This is not a “women’s issue” but a “family issue”. <— end of vent, I’ll actually address featherlou’s questions in my next post.

24

If I may. astro claims that this is so because women are largely responsible for making certain crucial consumption decisions. If she truly wanted to be able to spend more time with the kids, perhaps she should trade in her BWM for a Honda.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, this assertion resonates powerfully with me, a 24 year old male who grew up in the suburbs of New York City. Where I grew up, it seemed that the social pressures of consumption were very powerful, particularly among women.

Whether this reflects reality or my own bias, I do not know. I am sure plenty of economic and sociological work has been done in this area, as affluent suburbia is a huge locus of consumption.

25

I’ll back up Maeglin and Astro - but from the other point of view.

I work with a bunch of guys. Many of their wives stay home with the kids - who are all at least in elementary school. And the guys gripe about their wives complaining about the size of the house, the age of the car, the lack of vacations. The guys have this amused “well, honey, maybe you could get a job” attitude - but to hear them talk about their wives, the wives just don’t get it.

I’m sure there are men who also don’t understand the relationship between earning money and spending it (in fact, many, many men), but because these choices (work for money or stay at home) are traditionally bourne by women…

26

That’s a good way of putting it. It’s nothing intrinsically female, per se, but a result of the SAHM middle or upper middle-class gender role.

My mother was pretty easygoing about such things. This is due in part because she is not terribly materialistic, in part because she worked fairly frequently (and now owns her own business), and partly because her form of one-upmanship with the neighbors was grounded in the accomplishments of her children. It was pride, not genuine competition, to be fair. But she still enjoyed it immensely.

Some of her acquaintances were rather less benign. There was “Liz,” who used to drive us to Sunday school in her Mercedes loaded with jewelry, and “Maddy,” who used to spend untold fortunes weekly on custom mosaic and artwork for…

wait for it…

Her nails.

When Liz’s husbands’ luxury car dealership went bust after the late 80s economic downturn, they were so deeply in debt that she had to sell all of her jewelry and leave town.

After promptly divorcing her tool of a husband.

Sure, she’s a pretty extreme example, but the culture of competitive consumption in my community was sometimes stifling.

27

1. Is it possible to be a Superwoman and have everything, or do you think that women do have to make choices about what is most important for them to accomplish?

Background on myself, I’m 32 and my husband is 35. We’re expecting our first child in March 2003. My husband has his own, struggling, small business. I have a career in television production. We’ve been married 3 years.

First off, I really, really detest the term “superwoman”. What exactly does that mean?!? Seriously, I don’t think it’s too much to want or even expect a career, marriage, family and decent home because, really, isn’t that supposed to be the “American dream” and what we are all struggling to achieve? And I don’t think that one necessarily has to supercede or take precidence over the other. If that makes me delusional, so be it.

I’m going to continue to work after my maternity leave. We’ll be using the best daycare that we can find and afford. The decision to go back to work rests both on a practical one - we need my salary to make our mortgage payment and bills - and also on my desire to continue in the career that I enjoy and satisfies me.

I hate to think I’m “lucky” but even now, pre-children, my husband and I really do share a division of labor when it comes to household chores. We both cook, clean house and do the laundry. Neither of us expects more of the other than we give and if either of us feels the other isn’t pulling his or her weight, we discuss it in a non-judgemental manner.

I anticipate this division to continue after we have our baby. I envision one of us making dinner while the other is bathing the baby and getting him/her fed and in bed for the night. I do expect initially that some of the weight will fall on me because I intend to breastfeed and that will require me to attend to most of the nighttime feedings.

2. What factors are affecting your decisions regarding career/baby/marriage issues?

I think each of them affects the other. For instance, my career is really formulating now, in my early thirties, but it is also a time in which we want to start a family. Obviously, that means, for us, that daycare is the option that we’ve chosen.

3. Is the information that you may not be able to have healthy babies well into your forties changing your long-term goals for yourself?

Not really. I already knew of the increased risk for some disorders (Downs, spinal bifida) as the age of the mother increases. And I also knew of the chances for decreased fertility. The only way this might impact us is that we might turn around and have another child shortly after we have this one (as long as secondary infertility doesn’t rear its ugy head).

Sorry if I sound bitter in my previous post but this is a issue that’s impacting me right now and I’ve growwn tired of people assuming (especially the women in my family) that I’m going to quit my job and stay home after I give birth. I get the “daycare can’t be a substitute for a mother’s care” from them, to which I reply “yes, I know, he/she will have a mother…me”.

I guess I just never expected the women who are only one generation away from me, most of whom utilized some form of care themselves, to being passing judgement.

And the funny thing is, everyone assumes that I should be the one quitting my job. I love reminding them that I make more than my husband so if we are going by who brings home a bigger slice of the bacon, it’s me.

Anway, the shut up after I bore them a bit with my gender stereotypes rant. :slight_smile:

28

And I think that’s a gross assumption to make. And then why not BOTH the wife and the husband trading in the BMW AND the Lexus? Obviously, the father/man buys into this conspicuous consumption assumption just as much as the mother/woman.

Interestingly enough, I was having this discussion with some friends - the SAHM vs. Working Mom one - and in mixed female/male company. Many of the ones who had SAHMs were relaying how they NEVER saw their fathers as they would typically roll home from work well after their bedtimes. But, it seems in our society, that’s perfectly acceptable and men aren’t questioned about their roles as fathers and how much time they spend caring for their offspring in quite the same manner as women are.

29

I think you are missing the point. Because of this gender role, men are usually not expected to provide for the househould and the family as much as women are. You’re right, it is socially permissible for the man to leave early, come home late, and see his kids just enough to tuck them into bed. This isn’t something I necessarily agree with.

All that we are saying is, if it is the woman who complains about being pulled apart at the seams by the conflict between her career and her family, she should moderate her wants. Obviously the same would hold true for a man, but due to the prevalence of male and female gender roles, this is obviously less common.

30

Which part is less common? A man feeling a conflict between work and family is certainly less common than a woman having it, but I don’t think it’s terribly uncommon for a man to be a conspicuous consumer, want a bigger house, more property, a nicer car, to join the country club, etc. It is indeed socially permissible for a man to leave early, come home late, and rarely see his children. But if a woman is feeling a conflict between work and home (assuming work is a “normal” job, not the sort that eliminates any life outside of work) because her husband won’t participate in household tasks, leaving her to do a double shift, why should she modify her wants (except to want a different sort of husband) without him modifying his?It’s their problem, not hers. I used to have arguments with my husband about how he wasn’t doing his share of the chores. He invariably told me how much more he did than his male friends. That particular defense stopped when I pointed out to him that if our income suddenly dropped in half because I quit my job, there were going to be a lot of things he would have to give up.
I think it’s sad that because it’s socially permissible for men not to spend time with children a lot of the SAHM’s I know with school-age children have husbands working multiple jobs. Because somehow, it’s more important that mom be home, even while the kids are in school, than that the kids ever see dad.

31

I’m a “supersenior” in college, and though I’m dating someone, marriage is a long ways off. Still, I’ve thought of things like this.

I, too, do not like the “Superwoman” term. I think it is possible to have a fulfilling career, a good family, etc., but I think a woman needs help. Specifically, I would expect my husband to help out in housework, raising the kids, etc. I never want a job that requires 60-hour work weeks. At the same time, I don’t especially want to marry someone who’s job requires 60-hour work weeks.

**

Well, as I stated earlier, I would not want a job that requires long hours at the office. I don’t think my particular line of work (R&D engineering) is conducive to working from home. I would want my husband to be supportive and helpful, again as previously stated. I would have no problem with him wanting to stay home, or work from home, if we could work it out. Maybe because I was raised by my father, but I don’t see anything wrong with having a man as the primary caregiver.

I never expected to become a mother in my forties. I thought mid-thirties was pushing it. I had young parents, and I enjoyed it (I also enjoyed having younger, active grandparents). If it were a perfect world, I’d like to have my first child before I turn 30.

32

I don’t see my partner’s role as him being my helper. If a nappie needs changing, he’s not helping me when he changes it, he’s doing parenting which is a shared job.

I don’t own the parenting around here - we do it together. He’s not helping me or supporting me when he does a fatherly thing.

Maeglin, I’m really bugged by some of your assumptions about men, women, consumption and parenting. Where do you see equality featuring in there?

33

As a stay at home dad, I’m finding alot of the banter about husbands and fathers amusing and sad. Yeah… fathers aren’t held to the same standards as mothers… we aren’t appreciated or seen as equal either. When my wife was pregnant we both worked very comparable jobs but I worked for a small local company and she worked for a large international corporation. She made more money and had much better benefits, we both agreed that we did not want our daughter in daycare so I quit my job and stayed home after my wife’s maternity leave ran out. See… right there is part of it… I always feel the need to compulsively explain my situation to people. ;> Now that my daughter is 1 1/2… I’ve been doing this awhile and I notice some things. Nobody takes me seriously… from small talk at the grocery when I buy diapers to purchasing a car, people take my role as primary caregiver as either a cutesy joke or at worst suspect me of being some kind of bum who refuses to work. I realise that (although it would never happen) if anything were to go horribly wrong in my marriage, my wife would pretty much automatically get custody of my daughter and I would be forced to pay child support from a non-existent job, and it might be tough to re-enter the workforce as a man after taking so long off to care for a child. I have Nobody to talk to who can relate to what I do… people suggest I talk with stay at home mothers, I am NOT a mother. I am not a man doing a woman’s job, I’m a DAD. It’s just frustrating at times… but in the end it’s worth it. The sexual revolution has come a long way… but somehow I think my particular part of the battle ground will be the last to get resolved.

34

I am a SAHM with two kids. I live in a semi-rural area with really no support system except a MIL - who is a half hour a way) and one friend. My neighbors are nice, but morons. So, I am essentially, by myself. Me, the kids, the TV and the talking fridge.

With what I did before children, all of my money would have gone towards daycare and expenses, and all I would have gotten out of it would be stress, stress and guilt. (Mr. Ujest is extremely hands on as a dad, but his hours are screwy, so most of the babyy stuff falls in my lap.)

I have seen very strong, powerful women who have outstanding careers have a child and stuff them into day care as if they were ticking off it from their “to do” list. I have watched said child become a walking, living, breathing nightmare of the first order. I have watched said friend gestate another child into this world and stuff that one into same daycare gulag. After two years of this, another nightmare child created, she quits to stay at home with them BUT keeps them in daycare so *she can have time to herself *. One day a week, fine, but FIVE? WTF? She is now expecting #3 and back at a new job part time because she cannot handle being at home full time. Kids are in daycare still. She has made a concession in finances, she has given up her weekly maid.

This is one of those people that are great as friends but absolutely lousy as a mom.
Flip side of that is one of my neighbors is a SAHM. Two kids. No education and not really bright. She and her husband - by the way she talks - are always on the verge of bankruptcy. It doesn’t help that her husband really doesn’t do shit around the house and spends any income left over on hunting stuff. He doesn’t listen to her (which is a form of abuse, in my opinion.) She has the self esteem of a…oh…13 year old girl, correction. I have a couple of 13 year old cousins who have more confidence than this woman of 36.

She desperately *needs * to work outside the house to discover who she is other than a frickin’ doormat. She is under the opinion that a woman has to wait for a man’s approval to do things and cannot seem to grasp the situation that if after years of nagging husband that he still hasn’t done X, that it is ok to do it yourself or pay some to do it for you.

I refer to her in my mind as *Neville Longbottom *. From Harry Potter, the nice, but highly forgettable boy.
I have no idea how Mom’s who work for money get any free time to themselves or not go bonkers from the work, home, clean frenzy.

The best thing that has happened to me is Staying At Home With My Children. Not because I am a superior mom (cough:::far from it:::cough) but during this time, nearly five years, I have really found out who I am and have really shut down from the outside lemming like influences that I use to follow. On the flip side, I am now more of an outspoken meglomaniac because I am by myself all day long and expect to be obeyed (HAH!) I am subsequently more tolerant of people because, frankly, I need the company and will talk to Jehovah’s, fercryinoutloud.

Do I wish I was earning money to pay off a mound of self induced wad of bills? You bet.

Would I rather stay at home, ignore the house keeping to persue my hobbys ( writing) while watching the kids grow and fight and cause more sticky spots in the house? Oh yeah.

The fact that I can go run errands during the slow, non populated part of the day, or take the kids to the park when it isn’t packed, or just *do whatever the hell I want * is all up to me. And today, I am wasting quality time on line instead of folding laundry.

My motto: Housework will always wait.

If anyone actually gleened something of relevance from this post it is purely accidental.

35

I’m not making any assumptions, I am only speaking to a particular situation. My remarks are not concerning parents generally, just those who meet a few criteria. Namely, those who complain about the conflict between their wants.

My household was fantastically egalitarian. My dad was a great role model. He pitched in as much with the housework as my mother did, whether she was working or not. He taught me to cook, look after one’s house, and never to expect a partner to perform a task you wouldn’t or couldn’t do yourself.

And like I said, my remarks apply equally to men, torn between the desire to spend more time with their kids and the desire to hold on to their luxury cars. My thoughts related to the specific suburban competitive consumer context, hardly to parenting in general.

36

Well, this has been fascinating. As I suspected, women are making choices for themselves that aren’t necessarily following the Feminist Agenda (cue lightning crash and thundering organ music). I do agree with Astro that a lot of what people see as necessary is a want rather than a need - and yes, they do look at you like you just grew another head when you suggest that they don’t actually need everything they want.

As for my choice of the word “Superwoman”, I chose that because of the use of the word in the media, and because most people would recognize the extreme I was talking about due to that.

As for adressing the father/male issues, that’s another whole thread, I think. I was mostly curious about how women are making their own choices at this point; I realize that these choices aren’t made in a vacuum, and of course men have a lot of input into their spouses’ decisions.

37

lokij, I know what you’re talking about. My husband does more caregiving than me. I’m surprised by how much attention he gets for it. For the most part, it’s nice that he gets recognition for being a dedicated dad, but it’s a little irksome that he’s considered a super-dad for doing things that I, as a mom, would simply be expected to do as a matter of course. Actually, it doesn’t really irk me, but I find it’s a measure of how ingrained our gender role expectations still are.

He’s the only dad in the “mommy and me” art class he takes our son to. He was the only dad who attended all the infant massage classes we took (once I started back to work, he went alone with our son). The teacher couldn’t say enough about that, how he was the first dad she’d ever had who came to ALL the sessions. And when I go to a conference, people seem awed that I left my son home along with his dad. Would be people be awed if HE went away for work and left me with the little guy?

Sorry for the hijack, folks.

38

The whole premise of this question bugs me. Why is this a “women’s” issue and not a parents’ issue, regardless of gender? A few of the posts even hint that an at-home dad is second best. I don’t get this. I truly don’t see mom’s role as necessarily any different from dad’s.
(except for breastfeeding, of course)

39

Hm, I don’t think I agree with that one. I thought feminism was about being able to make the choices they want, not about pursuing a career at all costs. Well, my brand of feminism is, anyway. I feel that I am free to choose the way I want to live my life within the circumstances I’m in, and this (staying home) is what I choose to do right now. (And SAHMing is unpopular enough in some areas these days that it counts as going against the flow…)

Hey, lokij, do you think there are any boards or anything for dads at home? Yours is the main complaint I’ve heard from SAHDs, and maybe there’s someplace online to gripe about it. My BIL is planning on staying home with their child when they have one (hopefully soon), so I would be interested in any resources you find out about.

(Like Shirley, I like going grocery shopping at 9am on a Tuesday, and doing whatever the heck I want! I think I’ll go to the gym, and then the fancy grocery store to get cider for Thanksgiving.)

40
  1. Yes, but NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME

Actually that’s wrong, you can have it all at the same time but it would be damned hard to be ‘sucessful’ at everything all at once.

  1. I am 26, I am not ‘ready’ to be married and I am not ‘ready’ to have children. I can’t define for you what would make me ready, but I know it’s not there yet.

  2. No. My goals are as follows - be happy.

If I meet a man who I want to marry and/or be with for the rest of my life then thats fine. If I don’t I don’t. If I meet said man and I happen to become pregnant then that’s fine. If I don’t I don’t. I don’t have ‘goals’ for these areas of my life as I think it’s rather pointless and will only lead to disappointment. I am happy to let things run their natural course without worrying that I’ll never marry/have kids. That being said I am still young, perhaps I will think differently in a few years time.