Well alice_in_wonderland, you pretty much completely ignored the point I was trying to make in order to engage in a little emotional one-upmanship and hysteria. I’m tempted to nominate you for “Biggest Misconstruction of a Post” Award. Let’s go about this rationally, huh?
“The woman”? which woman? the one who got drunk? I can’t see how wearing a miniskirt makes any difference at all. The point isn’t what she’s wearing. The point is that she gave up control of her own actions to a substance.
** What is the purpose of this example, beyond introducing another red herring? Does it have anything to do with the example I cited, that of someone who drinks too much/uses drugs?
**
I dunno. Does she?
**
Did you even read my post and THINK about it, or just blurt out the first things that came to mind? Get a clue: I wasn’t comparing the crimes, I was comparing the circumstances! When you act irresponsibly or just plain stupid by rendering yourself helpless through over-indulgence while surrounded by strangers, you have made it easy for someone to victimize you. Yes, you have, and while it doesn’t excuse whoever robbed/raped you, you still acted like a fool. And bad things happen to fools, irrespective of gender even.
**
This has got to be the single dumbest thing I’ve ever read on the SDMB. There is a BIG difference between passing out and “falling asleep,” lady. Trying to compare the two is simply idiotic in the extreme. When a person passes out, their brain is so heavily drugged they are not aware of their surroundings. But I don’t know anybody who could simply sleep through being anally raped. Do you?
**
Get this through your fat fucking head: sleeping and passing out are not the same thing!!
If I treated them like the fucking Queen of England, you still wouldn’t be invited. Geez. What a choad.
Because I hate polls where there are only options for some. It’s annoying. I think that anyone should be able to fill out the poll.
Coldfire: Um, maybe because I didn’t set out to do some massive fucking study about rape? It’s a simple poll in the pit on the SDMB. What would you have me do? Go canvass my community? Start a website www.pleaseanswerthisrapepoll.com and spend thousands of dollars on tv, radio, and newspaper ads to get a good, wide sampling? IT IS A FREAKIN INFORMAL POLL ON A MESSAGE BOARD! Holy cripes.
when you’re giving ammunition to folks who already believe that we’re artificially inflating the “real” rate of rapes?
when you continue to argue that showing ‘how many’ here were raped will make an impact and malign those of us who are disagreeing with your method by saying ‘it boggles your mind’ that we can’t ‘get it’?
For me personally - I got it way before this thread, the other thread etc. in me, you were preaching to the choir and loosing.
nothing pisses me off more than some one arguing a point I firmly, strongly and fervently believe in and doing a bad job of it/
that’s why straw man arguements don’t work - they’re easy to dismiss. by insisting that the results of this poll would have some significance, you set up a straw man of such dimensions that a baby’s exhale could knock it down.
No, the comparison is legitimate, although you have a point too. A person who is raped after drinking too much is still a victim. But they cannot be as much of a victim, since they contributed to their own vulnerability. And how? By undertaking an action they could’ve chosen not to engage in, i.e., drinking.
This same rationale is used in the laws against drunk driving, but it’s applied differently. Legally, a person who wrecks after drinking could’ve chosen not to drink. Therefore, the consequences of their drinking directly reflect a choice they made. Therefore, they are responsible for the outcome of that choice.
You are right that a drunken rape victim had something done to them. But they also made a choice that contributed to the situation. A bad choice.
There is no legal basis for this comparison I’m making that I am aware of. I’m simply basing it on common sense. People who tempt fate or act recklessly cannot claim they bear no responsibility for what happens to them.
Very well. Then don’t pass it off as statistics, or assign any meaning to it. Because as it is, you shouldn’t. Oh, and yell at those attacking you, not those trying to help you out.
when there’s a clear connection from one action to the next, perhaps you may have a point- so the person who chooses to jump off the bridge w/a big towel they intend to use as a parachute is undertaking a risk directly related to the action.
however, in the case of a drunken rape victim, it’s the intervening action of another player that is the determining factor in the resultant event. and it’s unconnected to the event (drinking great quantities of beer has no relation to my consent to be touched).
It does affect your judgement, but so do a number of other factors (experience, trust in the other person, lack of sleep, distraction by other things, depression etc.), which (as far as I know), you’re not claiming to be a factor in the ‘victim’ being partially responsible for the rape.
I was raped (in my home) while passed out. Sorry. I’m not as much of a victim. Nice to know; I’ll start working on that guilt I should have been feeling all these years.
wring: sorry, still don’t see the harm. And I haven’t “continued to argue that showing ‘how many’ here were raped will make an impact” I’ve simply explained why I started the poll, and why it didn’t see like either a stupid or harmful thing. I’ve responded to the accusations that I should never have started the poll and to people misrepresenting what my original purpose was. People asked, I answered: I think it MAY help.
I would like to point out that the “poll” didn’t specify female rapes (althought of course it’s implied). Rhum Runner was fine to answer the question if he was raped. I don’t see the problem. I have never been raped (and I’m male) so should I answer no? What about my male friend was was raped as a kid? Should he be refused to answer the “poll” because he’s not female?
my question was how would it help? if, as you seem to be saying in this post, you aren’t arguing that the results will have an impact.
I agree that the results won’t have an impact. the target audience will be easily able to dismiss the results as resulting from something too flawed to be considered.
No, badmana, they should be dismissed because he wasn’t raped. He’s purposely trying to mess up the poll (which, um, was already pretty messed up to begin with).
Ok, I can understand he wanted to pay with the “poll” (at least he admitted to it). What about all us guys who haven’t been raped? I mean, if “no” votes are as important as “yes” votes everyone, male or female, should be voting.
Again, I know it’s implied for “females only” but rape doesn’t only happen to women.
Sorry, asshole - you can’t compair the circumstances without compairing the crimes. If my bosses back is turned and I nick a piece of gum out of her purse, it’s a little different than if I nick $100 out of the till, huh?
If you can’t see the difference, then you are really too stupid to live.
Fine, shithead, you pass out at your friends house because you drink 27 beers. So YOU’RE responsible when your “friend” analy rapes you? Yes, that makes complete sense.
Are you really this big of a moron, or do you just play one on the SDMB?
Because it may convince some people that rape is more common than they thought. It may. Not it will, but it may. And even if it doesn’t… so fucking what?
Badmana,
Rape does not only happen to women, agreed…but the title of Opal’s poll is for women, not just implied, but stated when you click on the poll link…
Lizard, I understand what you are saying, I really do. But it is attitudes like yours that make it so difficult for rapists to be prosecuted, and also why so many women are reluctant to report. There is the mindset that she brought it on herself, or is to blame in some way, that the rapist would not have raped her if she had not been drunk / stoned / asleep / vulnerable. Yes, we all make choices in our lives, and maybe getting drunk to the point of passing out is not a good choice, but that does not take away any responsibility from the rapist. He chose to take advantage of a woman who was incapable of defending herself.
Many women (ok, no statistics here, just my own experience) already feel this way after their own rapes. They blame themselves, they are ashamed, they know people will question what they were doing before / during the rape and tell her, if you haden’t done that, you wouldn’t have been raped. This serves no purpose except to give rapists justification for their actions. Rapists often think their actions are justified, that she really wanted it, or she wouldn’t have acted that way. The truth is, if she said no, or was incapable of saying no, he has no right to touch her.
In my self-defense class we learned ways of making ourselves less vulnerable to attack. We also learned that there is no way to eliminate the risk, and no matter what the situation, it is never the victim’s fault. We also learned, that unfortunately, victims must expect to be questioned and blamed when coming forward, because of views like yours. No wonder some women are too ashamed to report their rapes.