I can’t believe that I just read that women who drink play a part in their own victimization.
That is the biggest load of horseshit I have ever read, and exactly the kind of thing Opal was talking about.
If I make the choice to drink, then that is where it should end. If someone else chooses to rape me, that has nothing to do with my prior decision to drink. How is that not obvious?
Or do you really believe that women who are not conscious want to get fucked?
I am out of here. This is pathetic.
“Views like mine”?! Did you not say, earlier in your own post, that
I would never be so crass as to say a woman is “responsible for her own rape.” Throughout this debate I have merely maintained that reckless behavior places some responsibility on the victim. And I have made it as clear as humanely possible that I am talking about ONE very specific set of circumstances: consuming a substance to extreme excess.
But like you yourself said, It sounds like women themselves feel the same way. They feel they were responsible, at least some of the time, too!
What conclusion can we draw from this, then? If the victims feel they may be partly to blame, and an uninvolved third party like myself claims that there is a logical basis for feeling they really are partly to blame, then at what point does 1+1=2?
If they feel that way, and I feel that way, what is your basis for saying both of us are wrong?
I have at no point in this thread claimed the rapist bears no responsibility, or even that the victim “brought it upon herself.” But there are bad people in this world, who do evil things. Ignoring the danger these people pose and placing oneself in a vulnerable position is foolhardy. And how can I, or society as a whole, be blamed for another person’s choice (yes, choice) to ignore the inherent risks of their behavior?
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I can’t either, since we’ve been discussing cases that are a lot more extreme than “women who drink.”
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If you’re so drunk you don’t even remember it happening, and had no chance to resist, whose fault is that? Who drank all that booze? It wasn’t your rapist.
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No, I don’t. I never said that. I never implied that. Your statements are so off-base they are almost completely disconnected to the real subject at hand: taking personal responsibility for one’s own safety.
Good riddance. You won’t be missed.
No…
You lay responsiblity on women in this one scenario.
I believe Velma was bringing before us the fact that some women blame themselves in this and other scenarios. She shouldn’t have been walking at night because the guy with the knife wouldn’t have been able to attack her etc…
Some women (after a rape) may feel that there is something wrong, dirty, inherently bad about THEM. That their ‘badness’ is the only reason a rape could have occurred in the . It’s natural, when feeling that way, to blame themselves.
But…
It does not equal actual blame or responsiblity…
If I walk down a street in the Columbia Heights area of Washington DC with fifties and hundreds hanging out of my pockets, and I am robbed, I think it’s fair to say i was acting carelessly. It’s also fair to say that regardless of my carelessness, I don’t deserve to be robbed. And that what my robber does is illegal and should be punished.
A-bloody-men. I tried to make this point on the first page of the GQ thread that spawned the multi-forum trainwreck.
Hysterical posturing based on dubious statistics is a bad idea. It might give you a warm, toasty glow of justification if you get to think that one in four women will be raped during their college career. However, it also makes it too easy to dismiss genuine concern about sexual abuse as agenda-driven hand-waiving.
Cooking numbers in a good cause is, arguably, more reprehensible than lieing through your teeth in a bad one. People who question those numbers aren’t “assholes,” they’re honest.
There are two major positions being taken in these threads. The first position is “What’s the evidence that one in four (or one in six) women will be raped? Is it any good?” The second position is, “I/my friends have been raped. Questioning these statistics is insensitive – a slap in the face to rape victims everywhere.”
Now I can understand perfectly how someone who has been raped would feel this way. Nonetheless, that attitude simply has no place whatsoever in GQ. It is perfectly appropriate – indeed mandatory – to closely examine the evidence for any claim – whether it’s the prevalence of rape or the tonnage of the annual Peruvian cotton crop. If, for whatever reason, you find such a discussion painful, then avoid it. No one will think any less of you for it. Many, however, will think less of you for attempting to stifle a factual inquiry in the name of sensitivity.
Philosophically, no, there really is no difference. You invaded your bosses privacy and took something that didn’t belong to you. Suppose you walk into a neighbors house whom you’ve never met, and he finds you standing in his living room. Do you think he cares whether you’re there to borrow a cup of sugar or to steal his TV set? Either way, he didn’t let you in, and you fucked up. Just like at a party, if you pass out it doesn’t matter if somebody raped you or robbed you; either way, had you stayed sober, things might’ve gone very differently.
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It is you who can’t understand the point I’m making. A point that other posters (such as Velma) seem to have problem grasping, even if they don’t agree.
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I have a very simple way of dealing with this kind of thing: I DON’T DRINK SO MUCH I PASS OUT! It’s really not a hard thing to do, given that people who drink that much are usually regarded as idiots by everyone else present, create a burden for whoever brought them, etc. It’s called “acting like an adult.”
And yes, I DID learn some of the consequences of drinking too much the hard way. I wasn’t raped or anything like that, but when all was said and done, I knew damn well that I couldn’t blame what happened on anyone but myself.
Lizard, if someone pass out, and someone else has sex with them, while they are passed out, that is rape.
Period.
They did not get consent. Ever hear of something called “diminished capacity?”
Yes, passing out and getting that drunk was dumb. That doesn’t matter, though-it’s still FUCKING RAPE!!!
Asshole.
Hey Guin…
He never said that it WASN’T rape.
But, where is the personal responsibilty of the rapist in this?
I really don’t understand your point of view.
She is responsible for getting drunk and passing out…yes. That means (to me) that it’s her darn fault if she has a hangover or gets rained on or loses her shoe in a drain.
But, if another person chooses to take advantage of her while she’s in this state, I feel they are completely responsible for the rape, for their actions. They alone are choosing to hurt another human being.
We can agree that certain actions put a person at risk, no arguments there! But, as to levels of responsibility? She is not responsible for another persons actions against her, ever, imho. We are only responsible for our own actions, not what another chooses to do to us.
But, I may be misunderstanding your point of view. It seems that you are not really blaming the victim, but you do feel the victim should take some responsibility (which sort of seems to be blaming the victim, so you can see my misunderstanding here)? shrugs
No shit!
I think that bears repeating.
Alright!!! A double quote!!!
Okay, then, I take that back and appologize.
However, what of the responsibility of the rapist? The victim’s real crime was being too trusting and naive.
I truly hesitate to dip my toes into this well, but here goes:
<because I’m anonymous, after all>
I am male. When I was 19, in college, I was arrested for rape, and thrown into jail. After spending a week in there, I finally was able to arrange for an attorney who got me released on $50K bail. After several attempts to resolve the issue peaceably, I ended up going to court…
It was at a party (of course), where this (I thought) nice lady and I hit it off. At least at first. Some drinks, lots of music, some toking going on…a typical '70’s party. (FTR…I was drinking, but not toking; it never really did anything for me). Ms X and I were getting into it hot and heavy on the sofa, with the party raging around us…at least as hot’n’heavy as we could in those circumstances. We started to drift towards my bedroom, but somehow never made it. We didn’t have an argument or disagreement…just…dunno, never made it. (Also, FTR…this was 30 years ago…time plays tricks on ones memory, of course. So please don’t try and pin me on specifics.) I thought we had a great time.
Until 2 weeks later when I was arrested for rape.
Huh??
It wasn’t until court that I was able to line up about a dozen witnesses that verified my story to such a degree that Ms X ended up recanting.
After I lost 2 weeks of my life, almost ended up getting kicked out of school and suffered the embarassment of getting fingerprinting, and for years went through hearing people whisper things like, “He’s a rapist that got off”.
The point of all that is to demonstrate my reluctance to believe anything in polls such as this, especially when some women today are capable of translating an unwanted kiss on the cheek as “sexual assault”. This is such an emotional topic that there seems to be little calm reasoned debate on it. So, thanks, Opal, for at least trying.
Also, FWIW…my sister was VIOLENTLY raped when she was a senior in high school, became pregnant from it and gave the baby up for adoption. I was there every step of the way, supporting her. So don’t even TRY to fucking tell me that I have no sympathy for rape victims or that I’m trying to deny the existence of rape. You won’t like the full-volume shitstorm I will bring down on your unlucky head.
Toaster: that really sucks 
The poll does specifically define rape as “nonconsentual sex” though, so I hope that people who answer “yes” weren’t talking about a stray grope.
And one thing to say regarding the whole passed out thing. Getting really drunk is not the only way to pass out. In fact, being under the influence of something isn’t even necessary. In my case, yes it was because of naughty substances, but it was those substances keeping me up for several days, after which, when I was finally “down” I passed out. Just wanted to make that point–passing out != getting really drunk.
Let me just say that sharing that story was really brave, Toaster.
I’m glad the truth came out. You’ve got cojones, man.
Hey-guys? Let’s lay off Opal for starting this poll. No, it didn’t turn out the way she hoped, but I think her intention in this case was spot on.
I am saying that yes, the victims are wrong in blaming themselves. It is not uncommen for victims of crimes, especially sexual abuse to feel guilt. But, what I am trying to point out is that just because the victim could have done something to possibly lessen her risk does not mean that any of the blame lies with her. We need to stop blaming the victim.
I took a self-defense class because I know there are things I can do to make myself less likely to experience a rape. If I had not taken this class, and experienced a rape, I am not any more to blame for the rape.
If I go out tonight and get so drunk that I pass out, let’s say at a friend’s house where there is a party, that is a stupid thing to do. This is where you and I agree. I know that there are dangerous people out there who could take advantage of me. But, this is my point, if a man rapes me while I am passed out, that is not my fault. It is his fault. 100%. He knows I am unable to give consent. He has no right to take advantage of my body. Some mystical force did not take over his body and compell him to rape me. I drank too much, but that, and only that, is what I am guilty of. He is the one who took advantage.
This is not the same thing as saying, women should go out and get drunk and pass out with strange men, and not expect anything bad to ever happen. I would never intentionally put myself in a dangerous situation, nor would I advise another woman that it was ok to do so. But the reason I would not advise it is not because it puts blame on her, but because, unfortunately, there are bad people out there who are looking for just this kind of opportunity. Protecting yourself against bad people is wise, but if you don’t that doesn’t make the person less bad.
I guess what bothers me the most about your view, is that it is that reasoning that could give a rapist justification, in his mind, to what he is doing. It is also that justification that prevents women from reporting rapes. Placing blame on the victim does no one any good. It serves no purpose whatsoever, except to shame her, and allow the rapist to downplay his responsibility. We want to educate women to reduce their risk and so that they do not blame themselves when something happens, not so that they can feel stupid if something does happen. When I pointed out that women blame themselves, I meant it as a bad thing, and something that is unfortunately a common belief, but is not true.
I understand when you suggest a woman is stupid for putting herself in a potentially bad situation. I agree. But that is all she is guilty of, putting herself in a potentially bad situation. He is the one who took the situation and made it bad.
I see on preview that Guin and Lady of the Lake have made some of these points already. I also just want to re-emphasize that doing something stupid or ignorant, or being too trusting, is not a crime, and does not mean that others can commit crimes against you. It might mean they will, but that is their fault. Being raped is an awful price to pay for making a bad decision.
Too bad. I just returned Calculated Risks to the library yesterday and, IIRC, in it Gerd Gigerenzer used an identical method to calculate the odds of a woman getting a false positive from yearly mammography screenings. Of course, since the library is about an hour away, I can’t just “pop in” to double check that I matched his method correctly.
BTW, that’s a book everybody should read, but especially women since breast cancer awarness is such a big deal. It sounds like women aren’t getting the straight dope on the benefits of screening, or its costs. Check it out.
I see what you mean, and I appreciate your attempt to understand what I mean. You have a valid point. I guess the best way I can put it is to say that I don’t see “taking” responsibility" and “assessing blame” as the same thing.
It is clear to me that many of the women who have responded to this debate in this thread think that a woman drinking too much and her subsequent rape are two wholly unrelated events. (Actually, some have said it flat out.) And it also seems obvious to me that the type of men who rape unconscious women are not the same ones committing violent assaults. If they were, why wait until the woman was unconscious? So they are fundamentally opportunists.
I can’t agree with that first premise, because it is illogical. Isn’t it fair to say that protecting all women in the world from sexual predators is not any one person’s responsibility, that the women bear some of that responsibility themselves? A woman who has drunk to the point of incapacitation has abdicated her share of that responsibility. She has made it easy for an opportunist to turn her into a victim.
So given that there was something a woman in this type of situation could have done to avoid the outcome, yet didn’t do it, I can’t see how she is not partly responsible for what happened. But that’s a long way from from saying she is “to blame.” To me, it’s the difference in responsibility between somebody who takes action to bring something about (in this case, the rapist) and somebody who, through inaction, allows something to happen (i.e., the victim). Obviously, the active party bears a lot more of whatever “blame” or “responsibility” there is. But not all.