You think reason works in environments like this? Facts and reason are many times largely irrelevant here.
Again, the insults are ONLY directed at the Bernie supporters who have ALREADY decided that their only blue vote in November will be for Sanders, and for whom no amount of persuasion will change that decision.
Don’t know why you’d be invested in sparing that crowd any of their well-deserved opprobrium.
You’re wrong. You’re simply trying to redefine the argument.
The people who shit on Bernie supporters are not asking them if they’re going to vote democrat anyway, they’re just shitting on Bernie supporters. People are not giving the “only the Bernie supporters who won’t vote for Joe Biden” caveat that you claim is implicit. You’re just trying to justify toxic behavior by saying that it’s only targeted at those that deserve it, but that’s something that you’re just making up and assuming, and lots of people clearly do not share your definition.
Case in point: I was called a “Bernie Bro” in the comment that this thread was a response to, despite the fact that I voted for Clinton, and will almost certainly vote for the democratic candidate in this election. Plenty of people in this thread are still insulting me, even though, as I said, I am very much not in the “bernie or bust” crowd you claim those insults are aimed at exclusively.
Point out the sneerers who DON’T reserve their opprobrium for that crowd, and I’m right there with you, man. 'Cos FUCK THOSE GUYS.
As for insults you perceive are directed at you personally, grow a thicker skin.
SenorBeef, we are only shitting on those Sanders supporters who have already taken steps to remove themselves from relevance by being Bernie or Bust voters. You have said you aren’t one of them, so why are you defending that hill? Do you see some hidden good in them, some reason to believe that they will change their minds when push comes to shove?I
A better investment is in building a case for Biden people to come to Bernie when Biden collapses.
Again, that’s bullshit, you’re just redefining your argument. People are definitely still insulting me after I explicitly stated voting for Clinton and having a 99%+ chance of voting for the democratic candidate this time around. Anyone who supports Bernie can be hit with “Bernie Bro”, not just people who will vote for Bernie but no one else. You are just making shit up to make your side look better.
Point where the mean Squirrel hurt your feefees, preferably BEFORE your multiple rants and the death wishes of your fellow supporters.
Also, feel free to respond the the question I posed before, as to which is more likely: a fantastical theory of insanity or your own fellow supporter outright saying, “If Sanders isn’t the nominee, I won’t vote, no matter what”.
I’m pretty sure the two sides now are pro-fascism and anti-fascism. The powers that be want us to be at each others throats on the anti-fascism side.
Everyone should be a duck and let that shit run off you like water. Defeating rising fascism in our country must be the priority for everyone. Everything else is distraction and diversion. We are getting inundated with “hey look over here!” every minute of every day specifically to keep our eyes off the prize.
We are on the same side. Anyone that want to stop what is happening in this country is on the same side.
Not in this discussion and pretty much not on this board but across the wider internet - there are lots of pro-Trump trolls trying to alienate Bernie supporters and split the party.
I’m not saying that the people that are interacting directly with you are trolls. But they are out there promoting and amplifying and affecting the content you and your friends see.
Do not underestimate how important this election is to the Republican Party and how determined they are to win.
That’s how I use the term “Bernie Bro”. I think it fucking fits, and history (2016) bears it out.
Look at how McConnell and the Repukes are locking up bills NOW. Anyone (Biden) who thinks they will be able to work with them is a FUCKING IDIOT. He’s just “Repuke Lite” anyway. The only reason I’d vote for him, is the same only reason I’d vote for Bloomberg — to get rid of Traitor Trump.
I was speaking for myself, choad, and anybody else who agrees with me. Fuck me for trying to talk you down, so I’ll say this: you are obsessing over a fight that isn’t yours, and if you hadn’t alienated me and God knows how many other people I might have some sympathy when your aneurysm blows out. Look how much you’ve written in this thread alone; you are defending the bad sort of Bernie Bro more enthusiastically than they have.
No, you weren’t:
We. The most logical way to interpret your “we” word is that you’re talking about the people in this thread. And yet people in this thread are calling me a “Bernie Bro” and “Bernie Bot” and throwing all sorts of invective at me even though I am explicitly not a “bernie or bust” voter.
You’re simply trying to win the argument by redefining it. While you may personally only be insulting “Bernie or Bust” voters, other people in this thread (and indeed the entire reason this thread was created) were not.
How so? What would you say that my main message in this thread is? That Bernie or Bust voters are right and that if Bernie isn’t the nominee everyone should stay home for vote for Trump?
@SenorBeef, I have a question for you, if I may.
No. I would say that your main message in this thread is that people who prefer candidates other than Sen. Sanders should behave in such a way as to make Sanders’ supporters more, rather than less, likely to stay engaged and vote if he is not the nominee. Is that an accurate summary of your point? If so, I have a follow-up question.
At the moment, I think there is a strong and growing chance that Sen. Sanders is going to be the actual Democratic nominee for President. If he is, do you think your own behavior, in this thread and others, follows your own suggestion? Do you think that the way you talk to and about mainstream Democrats makes them more, rather than less, likely to stay engaged and vote for Sen. Sanders if he is the nominee?
Why is that the most logical? Or are you just full of shit, redefining a word that I clearly defined so you could be more offended?
Actually, they were. You just didn’t notice because you were mentally composing a page-long response to something you misread.
No, but your ardent support for them argues against what you see as your reality. Fuck them if they can’t be persuaded. Just keep them out of the public eye while the adults like you and I work out the right path.
Yes.
This is a reasonable and relevant question, but before I answer it, I want to examine it.
The people who are saying “vote blue no matter who” are either partisan democrats or people who are willing to vote for anyone against Trump, with a lot of overlap. Whereas the people who support Bernie may or may not be partisan democrats, a lot of them aren’t. A lot of them are generally unenthusiastic voters who would stay home on election day but are uniquely inspired by having an actual leftist candidate in our elections.
So, presumably, the people lecturing us to “vote blue no matter who” do not require us to similarly sell them on the idea of voting for Bernie, the premise of their position is built on requiring them to do that, whereas a lot of Bernie voters who do not believe the democrats represent them do not generally have an obligation to vote for the democrats regardless of who they run, especially if they feel as though the democratic party unfairly denied their guy a chance at the nomination.
So while your question makes it sound like each position is equal and can be reversed, I don’t think that’s the case.
That said, my attacks on this thread are generally against people who attack Bernie supporters, and how counterproductive their words are if their goal is as they say it is, to defeat Trump. But I did, especially in the OP, criticize establishment/partisan democrats as being corporate dick sucking democrats. That’s fair, but I’d say that 90%+ of my posting in this thread are counter-attacking in nature. I’m responding to attacks made on Bernie supporters, and in general, trying to point out the insanity of harassing Bernie supporters to the point of alienating them. Some of the people in this thread seem gleeful at the idea that they might actually manage to discourage someone who would’ve otherwise voted for democrats from doing so.
Incidentally, this is kind of beyond the scope of this thread, but sort of relevant: I don’t believe that Bernie will be the nominee even if the most people vote for him. I believe that if we get anywhere close, there will be some sort of rule change that disfavors him, some sort of suspicious numbers manipulation, some sort of crazy money manuever that bloomberg does, or simply that Bernie has a totally unexpected suicide by shooting himself twice in the back of the head. I would be willing to bet all the money I have, which admitted is not that much, that Bernie will not be running against Trump in November. And so I don’t forsee a situation in which I have to convince others to vote for Bernie.
However, if I did, and I saw someone who was having trouble with the idea voting for Bernie, I would certainly not try to make it harder for them. I wouldn’t gloat, I wouldn’t say “hahahaha what happened to vote blue no matter who you little bitch!?”, I would try to make them feel better about it, and not worse. Because, you know, I have two brain cells to rub together and I know that deliberately trying to alienate the people who I want to be on board with me is an incredibly stupid and counterproductive thing to do.
I’m not posting in this thread as a Sanders advocate, for the most part. I do not believe that Sanders can or will run for president on the democratic ticket. So I imagine a scenario going down later this year something like this: the elites in this country, one way or another, make sure that Bernie is not the candidate. People who support Bernie and in general are not happy that the democratic party is subservient to a few rich elites in this country are going to be pretty fucking pissed about it and extremely discouraged.
I very much want Trump to lose the next election, but there will be a lot of people who are conflicted about the whole mess. At that point, every asshole who is trying to alienate them is actively swinging them away from voting for the democratic candidate. There is no upside to doing this, no reason to do this, except your own pleasure at trying to insult and harm other human beings. Strategically it will be a huge blunder and make it more likely that Trump wins another term. My purpose in this thread is to point out how counterproductive this behavior is.
No; no strategy is worth it. Bernie voters (both Bros and those willing to see reason) should be frankly ignored entirely, because interacting with other humans is tiring and we’re all fucked anyway. But if I had to say things to people (sigh);
If you want to vote for Bernie in the primary, good for you! I mean yes, there is merit to the argument that one should support the person most likely to win the popular vote, but what the hell, you’re human, maybe other humans are like you and he can win the big one. But even so, I can respect a dude who wants to support the dude he wants to support when it doesn’t directly imperil his own and his country’s well-being.
Alternatively, if you’re a Bro who is steadfastly dedicated to voting against any democratic candidate other than Bernie ever no matter what, then you’re an idiot who doesn’t understand elections and/or a petulant fuck who would burn his own house down if he doesn’t get precisely what he wants. Fuck you very much! And have a nice day! Conversation over!
Because seriously, any Bernie supporter who’s a “Bernie or Bust” Bro deserves all the scorn that can be heaped upon him. They’re already lost causes, so there’s no reason not to rip into them. Well, aside from the fact that that takes energy and effort and the only sensible approach right now is apathy, sloth, and despair.
But yeah - Bernie supporters who aren’t actually Bros shouldn’t be attacked. The difficulty is telling them apart from the outside, and frankly it’s easier to vent spleen randomly and without direction. Fuck everyone, am I right?
As far as I see, the only mainstream Democrats he has attacked in this thread are those who attack Bernie supporters, and those who have gone after him for saying “why don’t we try being nice to Bernie supporters?”
Nonetheless, the answer to your question has already been stated–by me. The answer is “neither.” It is unlikely that any mainstream Democrat would not vote for Sanders if he’s the nominee. That’s been their whole argument–you need to vote for the nominee to counter Trump. It’s also consistent with how they’ve voted–mainstream Democrats are the most reliable D voters.
Bernie’s supporters, on the other hand, are on less stable footing. They tend to be younger, newer to voting, disaffected, or other such things. They are much more likely to not vote, period. As such, it is in our best interest to be welcoming, to encourage them to see that, even if the other candidates aren’t perfect, they still need to vote to stop Trump. He’s an existential threat to our country.
We have the opportunity to bring on new people, and some people seem to want to have ideological purity tests and filter them out. If they reveal they aren’t sure if they’ll vote for anyone beside Bernie, our response should not be to assume they are lost causes, but to try and convince them to stick with us. And we can do that by making them feel more welcome.
This logic just does not work in reverse. We don’t need to convince the mainstream Democrats to join us–they’re already here. We just need to be concerned that the Bernie supporters might not want to join us if they’re disheartened by him losing, and make being one of us as enticing as possible.
One of the things I’ve observed to be on the rise is a dissatisfaction in imperfection. It’s driven by the massive exposure to the world we have now: when the only boy in town was Bubba Two-Teeth you married him and dealt with it; when you see an entire internet of Harry Hunk-types you take it as given that since there’s always more fish in the sea, you can toss any small ones back.
I don’t think it’s the Democratic party’s ideological tests that we need to worry about. I think it’s the individual Sanders voter that’s most likely to decide that a non-Sanders Dem candidate doesn’t pass their ideological tests. And I think that remains true no matter how polite we are to them - even if they somehow managed to navigate the internet and avoid being insulted by somebody, everybody else is not Bernie.
We are not going to get all of them, no matter what. “No compromise!” is not just a republican mantra.
I shall quote a post from another thread that may be very relevant here. It explains (correctly IMO) that a Sanders Presidency is likely to backfire on the Left. (The post is pro-Bloomberg but works as pro-Klobuchar or even pro-Biden, etc.)
Happy Lendervedder captures my own sentiments very well. I am not very enthusiastic about Bloomberg, but since he will use his huge campaign fund to rescue America politically if he’s the nominee, he may be our best chance in this desperate time.