Let's keep sneering at "Bernie bros", it worked so well last time.

The BBQ Pit
141

Is any democratic candidate automatically entitled to my vote?

What if I truly hate the candidate and feel like they’re bad for the country? So long as the democrats can run up against a worse opponent from the Republicans, am I permanently locked into voting for someone I don’t actually want to be president?

If so, then, what interest does the democratic party actually have in representing me? If I have to dutifully vote for them no matter what, they can continue to move rightward and try to capture the moderate American right while completely neglecting to represent my views or my interests in any way?

Is it only for this election, because of Trump, or given that it’s likely the Republican candidate will always be further right, and shittier, do I have to vote democrat in perpetuity even if they never actually ever do anything to help me or represent my interests?

You act as though the democratic party is entitled to the vote for those Sanders supporters no matter what. But that’s missing the point. The reason that people are supporting Sanders is that they don’t like that the democratic party is not actually a leftist party and does not actually strive to improve the economic lives of the common person. And in as far as they do, they’re fucking awful at it and consistently get crushed by the Republican party.

If I truly, honestly, and sincerely believe that Joe Biden will be a terrible president and only do damage to this country, do I have a moral obligation to vote for him? And if I believe that the next 10 democratic candidates are the same, and they never actually nominate someone who moves this country in the direction I want it moved, do I have to spend the rest of my life voting for democrats? Are they entitled to that?

That said, I will very likely eat that shit sandwich this election. But acting as though you’re entitled to a vote even though you’re not doing anything for those voters is, at best, obnoxious. The ENTIRE FUCKING REASON there’s a movement behind Sanders is that people don’t want more of this third way democrat bullshit. They don’t want corporate stooges that accelerate the power grab of the rich in this country a little slower than the Republicans do. When a massive movement tells you “hey, democrats, remember when you actually had progressive ideals long ago? Remember The New Deal and the Great Society? We want some of that again, because all you offer is now is neofeudalism, just with less blatant whipping than the other party”

You want those Sanders voters? Earn them by being someone they want to vote for. Their ranks mostly do not come from traditional democrats or Republicans that somehow bought into a Sanders cult of personality, they mostly came from indifferent and apathetic voters who think that voting doesn’t matter and who don’t bother to vote. And when you say “well, Bernie isn’t really a democrat, we’re not really going to listen to you guys and let him win the nomination”, of course you’re telling them, as they thought, that their vote doesn’t matter. And they go back to being apathetic.

You want the passion and interest and support of people who you don’t actually offer anything to, and then you’re resentful that they might not feel some sense of obligation to support people they have no allegiance to, and who give them nothing.

142

No. Basically, any random asshole can get on the ballot provided they get the signatures. Witness Trump and how scandalized the GOP was at the time. What stops most random assholes is the time, expense and organization of actually getting the signatures on a district-by-district level which is why you hear of even traditional candidates failing to secure a full slate of delegates in this or that state. Sanders ran as a Democrat because the amount of signatures and organization you need is significantly lower when you’re running under a major party banner. I’m sure the state parties can throw up some barriers but the answer is, essentially, any asshole can run.

You’re allowed to think whatever you like but that won’t change the experiences I regularly have with Sanders supporters. But if it makes you feel better to assume I’m just wildly exaggerating and lying, I guess that works, too.

Sort of like how Sanders supporters try to win me over by calling me a liar?

143

Out of curiosity, where are you having these regular negative experiences with Sanders supporters?

144

Various online groups and communities. Some just “People on my Facebook friends”, some people in general Democratic-aligned groups, some people in just a video gaming or other unrelated group when the topic of politics rears its head. And often from people I legitimately know and not RussianBot2000

145

Yes, unless you want Traitor Trump again.

Would ANY of the Dem candidates be WORSE than the Orange Anus?

146

I’m aware of the history, John Stamos. You may not be aware that we’re talking about LBJ’s role, not the history of civil rights.

LBJ’s Civil Rights Act was famously incredibly controversial, was filibustered at record length, and was passed over the vehement and violent recriminations of the opposition. There are so many famous quotes about not waiting anymore for civil rights, because the opponents of civil rights were always going to be anti-justice, that I’m a little taken aback at where to even start. Just read anything by MLK, I guess. Civil rights wasn’t incremental change, and still isn’t. It’s punctuated equilibrium. LBJ said, about the thing we’re currently arguing about for no reason:

LBJ is not a compelling argument to cite as an example of how you do things quietly and patiently. LBJ is the antithesis of patience and generational progress. LBJ is extremely famous for bullying and hurrying things. If you asked 100 historians what the name of LBJ means, in the context of what a hypothetical president should do about a controversial issue he or she believed in, exactly zero of them would say “take it slow, take what you can get.”

147

The question isn’t about “entitled.” The question is, what’s the best thing YOU can do?

If you think, as I do, that Clinton (Hillary or Bill) is way too far to the right, and it sucks to have a choice between them and someone even further to the right, and that our political system is horribly twisted in favor of wealthy people, then you still have exactly the same choice: what’s the best thing YOU can do with your vote?

Sometimes a patient has cancer, and you don’t have a magic wand to wave to make them better. You have to choose between chemo and radiation, because the magic cure doesn’t exist.

And sometimes it’s just that, only your choice is between chemo and setting them on fire. As bad as chemo is, you should still choose it, because that’s the best thing you can do.

As leftists, you and I face a different choice from the choice faced by the Sanders-Trump voter. They want something very different from what I want, and I can’t appeal to them by saying that Clinton (or Biden) is at least better than Trump, because they don’t believe that. If I want to convince them to vote for the Democratic candidate, I need to offer a Democratic candidate that they think is better than Trump.

148

If given the choice between one extreme right wing candidate and one moderate right wing candidate and being told hey, you have no choice, you have to vote for the less right wing candidate - well, that’s how we’re in this mess at all. That’s how the democratic party has stayed alive for 40 years without any sort of progressive agenda.

If they can take your vote for granted even if they don’t do anything to represent you, then they have no reason to try to represent you.

Sitting out an election and saying “if you want my vote, do something for me” is a perfectly valid tactic to change the strategy of a party. Voting for them no matter what they do just incentivizes them to ignore you.

Now, I’m not advocating that at this time, but it’s not a ridiculous idea. I’m certainly not committing to voting for right wing democrat candidates for the rest of my life just because the republicans can manage to wrangle up an even shittier choice.

149

Here’s what I think should happen. The Republican party should finish dying it’s natural death and go away. The far right Magahat wearing racists should go back in the closet where they belong. Then the Democratic party should split in half to make a new left wing and a new right wing. Because AOC was right. Only in America are AOC and Joe Biden in the same party.

And SenorBeef. I agree with your OP and and subsequent posts in this thread 100%. I couldn’t agree more if I had written them myself.

150

It’s also perfectly valid to judge someone for disregarding the cost of their tactic. Or, I suppose, for carefully regarding the cost and still feeling like it’s worth it.

The only thing stopping Sanders and AOC from making their own party is that it would be inconvenient for them. Which, again, is why Sanders is running as a Democrat despite not being a Democrat.

151

It’s a ridiculous idea because it doesn’t work. This is precisely the reasoning that I heard in 1996, and every year since then. Refusing to cast a vote in order to affect the parties is slightly less reasonable than using transcendental meditation to levitate the Pentagon, because at least the latter action posits a magical theory by which it may be productive.

152

What works, then? Voting democrats no matter what as they race Republicans to the right for 40 years? That, obviously, has been a failure. We wouldn’t be in a position where the Overton window was so far right that Trump was even a possibility if not for the people consistently voting for a conservative democratic party all this time.

They are only slightly less blatant about being an oligarch serving party than the Republicans, and telling everyone they must continue to vote for them no matter how far right or how far out of touch that are with the average person they are is exactly what enables them to continue not to represent the American people.

Withholding votes, or a credible threat to withhold votes, is the only chance we have to influence their behavior.

153

Start your own party away from the evil near-Republican fake-liberal Democrats instead of trying to extort them under threat of more Trump-appointed Justices, eroded gains for LGBTQ, further nationalist attacks on immigrants, etc. The Democratic party supposedly left you so go set out on your own if you guys are convinced that you’re the future.

I mean, that’s essentially what you’re doing when you say you’ll refuse to vote for any Democratic candidate except the Anointed One so you might as well be honest about it instead of acting like party parasites.

154

Okay. Sure. You’re happy with fragmenting the democratic party into two parties in a winner take all election? What effect did you think that will have on those rights you listed?

Calling Bernie The Annointed One also shows you have no idea what fuels his support. He’s not a cult of personality, he’s simply the only leftist candidate with sincerity and credibility to make the national stage in decades. People flock to him because he represents progressive ideas, not because he himself is some Perfect Leader.

155

No. No no no.

What works is, 364 days a year, pushing the Democratic party to the left. What works is doing the hard work of organizing: of talking with people, listening to people, persuading people. What works is organizing events, writing letters and postcards, speaking to the press, joining organizations doing good work, donating to folks doing good work. What works is going to meetings of your local Democratic party and doing the work there, getting into a position where you can run for office yourself or at the very least influence the selection of who runs.

364 days a year you do that. On the 365th day, you vote in a way that stanches the bleeding.

The voting booth is NOT an effective place to engage in party influence.

156

The same as if the Bernie people stay home and pout if they don’t win the primary.

At least, in my scenario, you stop pretending to be part of the party.

157

On the contrary, there’s a progressive wing of the democratic party. The only pretending bring done here is acting like forming a third party in the American political system is a viable option. The two party system is all but officially codified. You’re dressing up your desire for leftists to shut up and go away while disingenuously acting like you’re suggesting a viable option for them.

The left in America clearly has a significant number of supporters. They deserve a voice.

158

Sort of true. We both know the only reason Sanders runs as a Democrat in the presidential races is because he doesn’t want the humiliating 4% he’d bring in as an Independent/3rd party candidate. So I guess it’s not viable for AOC or Sanders, etc to make their own “Really Progressive!” party despite all the rhetoric about being the True Voice Of The Left and having all the enthusiasm and blah blah blah. Funny, that.

159

Donald Trump appreciates your continued enthusiastic support.

160

Have you met the internet? :smack: