Those old people and people in the middle generally have an option, they can swing. What are the bernie supporters going to do? Not show up for biden the same way they didn’t show up for bernie?
You’re missing a key factor: electability. How many people agree more with Bernie’s positions, but felt that they had to vote for Biden because he’s more electable? That becomes self-fulfilling prophesy. People say “well I guess I gotta vote Biden, he’s more electable”, then he beats Bernie in a primary, and then people say “see! Biden is clearly more electable! Bernie can’t even beat him in a primary!”
Here’s the thing. When everyone dropped out, it became Bernie vs not Bernie. Biden just happened to be the one they decided to run with.
I mean - why Biden and not Pete? Is it because Biden beat him soundly at the polls? No, it’s because Pete, despite being a viable candidate, decided to drop out right before Super Tuesday like every other candidate. It was an obvious coordinated move to consolidate the anti-Bernie vote into one candidate.
But who decided that Biden would be that candidate? The party did. So yes, the people chose Biden over Bernie, or really, not-Bernie over Bernie. But they didn’t really choose Biden over Pete.
That is a good question and I don’t, offhand, have a good answer for it. My goal has generally been to persuade people within the current system.
I’m not sure we can ever generate a candidate that does not serve the rich first in our current environment. Almost all of our media is owned by 6 corporations. Bernie received a ridiculously biased coverage from them. “Can Bernie Sanders or the coronavirus be stopped?” because the people who run this country are the same people who run those 6 corporations. They also push the “you can’t vote for Bernie, he’s not electable” notion that becomes self fulfilling prophecy. They certainly fought a lot harder against a Bernie presidency than they ever did a Trump presidency. Hell, their 4.5 billion dollars in free coverage they gave Trump was probably pivotal.
But the idea that the majority of democratic voters are all informed and more in agreement with Biden than Bernie is false, I think. The idea that, say, its in the interest of black voters to vote for the guy who played a big role in the 1992 crime bill that devastated minority communities over the guy who has been ahead of the curve on advocating for equality and for the poor and disenfranchised his entire life seems pretty hollow. So what’s the disconnect? Certainly being bombarded with “crazy socialist Bernie Sanders could never be elected, you have to vote for the more electable candidate!” being heard from every fucking source of news in this country played a significant role in setting the narrative on this issue.
moderates and centrists have a choice, folks whoa re so far left they have trouble distinguishing between trump and biden don’t have anywhere else to go. So all you can do is try and pull the party to the left and watch progress happen incrementally. Free public school tuition was not really on the radar 10 years ago. now it is almost a fait accompli that we will get this in my lifetime. Universal health care was toxic 30 years ago and we are very likely to see a public option in my lifetime.
Your job isn’t to win, it’s to push your agenda and see which elements the moderates are ready to adpot.
Because we want to win this election? It’s not that he might scare away establishment voters it’s because there are a ton more establishment voters than radical voters. We know this because we just had a primary and there simply weren’t enough radicals.
IIRC a lot of people on this board swallowed hard and said “Welp, if bernie is the nominee, then we’ll vote for him, how much harm could he do anyways”
And for 2 weeks it looked like it might be bernie. Then South carolina happened. And super tuesday happened and all the other primaries happened and all of a sudden we realized that iowa and new hampshire are actually really small fucking states.
Though I’ve already made this point it bears repeating. Why is it when Bernie was polling better for the general than Hillary in 2016 we were told constantly “Oh, polls this far out from the election are meaningless” but when Biden polls slightly better than Bernie against Trump (often in the margin of error) we’re supposed to take it as gospel that Biden is more electable?
I always love this “Bernie isn’t even a Democrat” crap. I suppose he should have run as the Green Party candidate or as an independent this year with a big “FUCK YOU!!” to all of you. I’m sure that would have made you happy…
You got me, you win. It’s all a conspiracy. We all knew how great and unstoppable Bernie was, so we decided to fuck him over.
If we all knew the truth about Bernie without everything being rigged, Bernie would win all 50 states and D.C. and sneer at Reagan and Nixon!!! He won West Virginia in 2016, that just goes to show how much we want his revolution if it just wasn’t for everything being rigged against him!!!
You call it crap, but it is still a fact. He’s an independent and calls himself a Democratic Socialist. The only time he’s a Democrat, as in a member of the Democratic party, is when he’s running for President.
If he wants to run as the Democratic candidate, then he should join the party and work to support it. Maybe by working in it he could make the changes you want.
Note: I actually like a lot of his ideas. But I personally never felt he’d be a good President, which is why he didn’t make my top 10. Biden did, but not my top 5.
[quote=“Damuri_Ajashi, post:174, topic:851820”]
Do you have a link to these polls where Bernie was doing better than Hillary in the swing states?[/QUOTEIn
In the national polls he was winning by an average of 10.4%(!) but we were told over and over that this was meaningless. I’m sure the swing state data can be found if you really don’t believe a 10.4% lead nationally would be enough for an electoral college win. Somehow the same rules don’t apply to Biden…
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.html
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html
As you can see, Hillary was winning by an average of 2.1% so therefore in the minds of those whose sole goal is to influence the electorate she is by far the more electable candidate. New math you see…
So, another no content post from you.
You’re a big Pete fan, right? Why isn’t Pete the candidate now instead of Biden? Because Biden beat him in the vote count and was going to beat him? Pete could’ve very well won. But Pete dropped out right before Super Tuesday like everyone else did. Why? Did the voters not choose Pete? Did Pete suddenly decide he didn’t want to be president?
Maybe he should retract his endorsement and still run as an independent to make you happy…
He seems to be putting the good of the country above his own preferences. Perhaps you should listen to him.
Easy question. Fundraising dried up after Nevada and froze after South Carolina. Sure I wish that that Steyer hadn’t ran ads in SC for months every minute of the day, but he did and bought himself a weak 3rd. Now going into Super Tuesday he knew he was going up against the Bloomberg money machine as well as Biden with a huge SC bounce. Bernie had his 25% cult locked in with no elasticity. Pete took an honest look at his campaign, knew he had enough money to give his staff severance pay for 2 weeks and decided to bow out.
I have never once told people not to vote for Biden if they live in even a potential swing state, my argument is that the Democratic primary electorate has, once again, been manipulated into voting for a candidate that they have been told is electable without any foundation in reality, or at best much less of a foundation than Bernie could claim in 2016. And that the people doing the manipulating are those who would rather lose with Joe than win with Bernie.
I guess being a troll doesn’t pay well enough for you to smoke the good stuff.
No worries. Happens to all of us. Consider it forgotten.
I think he picked Biden for his experience in government. I think he kept him through two terms because he respected the man and the value he brought.
If Biden delivers an Obama-lite (pun intended) agenda and a bit of Bernie’s progressive policies, I will consider the presidency to be successful. If all he does is stop the hemorrhage caused by the Trump admin, it will still be better than the alternative.
It would have made me about as happy as when Ralph Nader ran as the Green Party candidate in 200 and rewrote his epitaph from “consumer advocate” to “Spoiler candidate and also consumer advocate.”
But maybe that’s what would make you happiest. At least until Ruth Bader Ginsburg breaks a hip in 2022 and reelected President Trump gets to name her successor.
I was leaning to ‘Russian bot’, but this works, too.
What exactly is the distinction you’re imagining between being more electable and getting more votes? Because Biden got more votes. It’s no longer a question of who’s more electable; it’s the guy more people voted for.
Or is your argument that you feel Sanders failed in the primary but would do better in the general election? If so, what is that based on? Do you think that Sanders has a stronger appeal among Republicans than he does among Democrats?
And are you going to answer my previous questions?
I feel we’re seeing the worst of Biden right now. He’s not good at running for office. But he has a good record in office as a Senator and as a Vice President.
I already explained this. The perception of electability becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. Someone might agree more with Bernie, but hear from everywhere that Biden is more electable, and so they do what they feel is their duty, wanting to beat Trump, and they vote for Biden even though they like Bernie more. It doesn’t matter if Biden actually is more electable, just that the prevailing narrative says he is.
Sandes would do better in the general than the primary, yes. He gets a lot of votes that aren’t traditional democratic votes. Younger votes, people who are apathetic, and even crossover votes from people who aren’t die hard republicans but want to do something to shake up the system and elect someone who is anti-establishment. Trump got all those votes in 2016, but now Trump is the establishment and Bernie is anti-establishment.
In theory, Bernie should also get the votes from everyone who is a traditional democrat, who sees needing to beat Trump as the main priority, and will vote blue, no matter who.
So, let’s say Biden gets 60% of the democratic primary votes, and Bernie gets 40%. The thing about Biden’s 60% is that they’re mostly democratic party establishment enthusiasts - they call themselves democrats, they vote democrat, they are politically active. Bernie’s group includes some of them, but it also includes a lot of people who signed up to vote in the democratic primary specifically for him, and would not have otherwise voted.
Because Bernie’s group is made up of a lot of people who are not necessarily democratic party loyalties or consistntly politically active, they may not feel it’s their duty to vote for Biden. But people who are politically active democrats should generally feel like it’s their duty to vote blue no matter who. So Bernie should get most to all of Biden’s primary group in the general, whereas it’s not as clear cut that it goes the other way. So Bernie gets both groups more than Biden gets both groups.
A lot of people who voted for Biden for the perceived electability - that goes out the window when the general hits, since those same people, concerned about someone being elected against Trump, vote for whoever was against Trump. There are a lot of reasons that the primary election is not the same thing as the general election, factors that could easily allow a primary loser to be a general election winner.
I think people overestimate how scary the whole “socialist” thing is nowadays. People are finally waking up to Republicans using socialism as a scare word for decades, and they know they’re getting a raw deal, so having things like publically paid university or health care sounds pretty good. A lot of the assumptions of how badly people would react to Bernie in the general are overestimated.
Which questions do you mean? Your last post towards me I answered in post #182.