You know what? I’ve got the right to determine who’s humble opinion is allowed to be posted in IMHO, especially when the “humble” opinion is is a hijack that disagrees with the premise of the OP in the first place. The experiences of other childless couples was called for-a debate by those opposed to the concept in the first place was not.
I agree with CrazyCatLady, Audrey Levins, and Czarcasm. It’s out of line. I had been enjoying that thread, but stopped reading fast when I saw the looming shadow of the Pit bearing down on it.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And everyone is entitled to express that opinion. But what so many people fail to understand is that (and I want to be really clear about this) THAT WORKS BOTH WAYS. If you express your opinions, you are entering into a tacit agreement that you in turn will hear the opinions of others. Just as you are free to spout off about anything you like, so others have the same freedom.
This often leads to a lot of spouting and a lot of wounded pride. In order to avoid hurt feelings all around, many of us select times and places to voice our opinions. Is this oppression? Is it fascism? Is this a nation of sorry souls too frightened to open their mouths and speak lest they feel across their face the cruel hand of the social contract? Sure, if you’re 17 and spend a lot of time in your room writing bad poetry. But for the rest of us, we’re just trying to get through our lives without completely offending everyone we talk to. Thus we pick our times and places with care. It is bad manners to wander into a thread devoted solely to the experiences of childless couples and begin firing accusations of selfishness at those involved. It is bad manners to wander into a thread about the experiences of couples with children and fire accusations of irresponsibility and a lack of concern for overpopulation problems. It is board suicide to wander into a thread about homosexuality and try bringing the Wrath of God™ in with you. 
And Lobsang, really, you’re a good boy but you shit a little close to the house. You always display impeccable manners by admitting your wrongs and apologizing for them.
But then you’re right back at it again.
I have no doubt your apologies are completely sincere. But their value on the open market is roughly equivalent to a freezer in the Arctic when you just keep doing the same damn thing.
I don’t care if people don’t want to have children. Its certainly none of my business. And wax-on lyrically about the joys of not having children. I’m glad that you’re happy in your life, etc.
But do NOT get all blustery and surprised when you refer to children as “snivelling brats” or whatever, and someone gets pissed about it. I have a kid. I don’t consider him a snivelling brat, and get very upset when other people refer to him that way. I don’t call your husband/wife/SO assholes, even though I’ve known plenty of asshole adults.
It is my biggest pet peeve on this board when childless people have to insult kids. What the fuck did they do to you? Why the generalization? Why the aggressiveness?
Again, I’m very excited and happy that you are living the childless life of your dreams, but leave off insulting the children of those of us that choose differently. There’s no fucking call for it.
I’ll further add, that when/if I vent my frustrations about juvenile delenquents, I spout off about their behaivior. As in, the kid was acting like a jerk, or wasn’t being too bright, or was being hateful etc.
I can understand people getting upset about the name calling, however that is not the first thing that came out of Lobsang’s mouth. If he was angry about the OP’s choice of words, he expressed the origin of it poorly at first. He attacked the people who had commited the trangression, instead of the transgression, and in doing so he offended.
Can’t we just make a treaty and move on with this now?
I’m surprised that no one has taken Bill H to task on (paraphrased) comment “There’s more to life than fun.” Or the many people that responded that they didn’t need kids for misery because they already had enough. As if they were bragging about their horrible lives.
Fuck you all, I seek out fun, and try to avoid misery, and make no apologies for it. I make a conscious effort not to bring pain into my life as if I had to fill some sort of quota. If this makes me selfish, then so be it. I’m selfish – and happy. If you need to play the martyr and take on my share of unhappiness, you’re more than welcome to it.
I disagree. The OP in the original thread seemed to be on the line between a rant about juvenile delinquents and the parents who thoughtlessly enable them and a sincere request for the experiences of others who have made the decision not to become parents. Personally the “snot nosed yard apes” would have tipped the scales towards “come rant with me” for me, but you have far more experience with IMHO “seeking other” type threads.
I have no problem with the childfree movement on principle. Each person should be free to seek their own happiness in whatever form they believe they will find it without criticism from those who believe happiness is found in another manner. I do object to the seemingly mandatory derision(a typical example exists in the OP of the original thread) of people who have made a different choice. To have all children lumped into the category of juvenile delinquents or to have all parents lumped into the category of mindless or spineless enablers of delinquency, well, it seems like a rant, not a polite solicitiation of other experiences. IMHO of course.
Enjoy,
Steven
Count me in with the people who think calling someone “judgemental” after posting (in) a thread where children are referred to as “snot nosed yard apes” and where people imply that changing diapers is a waste of time, is absurd.
Pot, kettle; both black.
See, in my own mind i tend to place IMHO threads into two broad categories:
- Threads that presume no particular postion, in which people are asked to offer an opinion on an issue, or to outline an experience that they may have had. This could be just a general call for your viewpoint (for example, “Expressions from the South…got any good ones?” or “What did your parents do to annoy you” or “Shop assistants offering help–appopriate?”), or it could ask you to choose from a couple of options (e.g., “Chess vs. Poker” or “Monogamy: Cultural or Natural?” or “AA: Good or Bad”).
- Threads that call on people in a specific group to share their feeling about being part of that group, and their experiences.
The thread in question definitely falls into category number 2, in my opinion, and when that is the case i’ve always thought that it was the polite thing not to jump into that thread and start blasting away at the members of whatever group is holding the discussion. If you don’t agree with what’s being said, go and start your own thread in GD or The Pit, where people can come at the issue from all sides. But i’ve always thought that, in IMHO threads, the OP gets to set the rough parameters within which opinions will be offered.
For example, there are currently a few threads in IMHO that qualify under category number 2. “Birth Control Patch–Experiences” and “Your Gay Lifestyle. What’s it like, really?” and “Calling All Geeks (PC Builders, Modders, etc.)” In each case, the OP wants people who consider themselves part of a particular societal group to give opinions and share experiences about being part of that group. This is not the place for someone outside those groups to jump in and start complaining about women who practice birth control, or go on a rant about the immorality of homosexuality, or bitch about the IT guy at work who won’t fix your computer.
I think the most interesting thing about Lobsangs’s invasion of the thread in question is that he conceded that he had gone off the handle, and said:
And then, after saying that he realized that he was out of line, and promising to “back out” of the thread, he proceeded to make at least nine more posts carrying on in the same way as before.
As Czarcasm said:
And the point, in case anyone missed it, was for people without kids to share their experiences of their lives. The issue here is not Lobsag’s opinions per se, but the fact that this particular thread was not really the place to air them.
Wait a minute kung fu lola - now the people who didn’t denigrate children at all are being condemned for posting in the thread? Or am I misreading you? 
Yes you are misreading me. I was just trying to be accurate - the poster who posted the namecalling may not have been the same poster who started this Pit thread.
My point was that namecalling, and harshly denigrating the responsibilities of parenthood, are judgemental acts.
Personally, I don’t think that Lobsang should have posted in the first place, since the people in that thread were clearly not interested in a debate (it was in IMHO after all).
But since he did, I don’t think anyone should be surprised. You can’t take a Pentecostal to a Samhain ritual and expect them to keep their objections to themselves. The whole “child/childless” debate is a hot issue with strong feelings on both sides. No one likes to hear that their children are “brats” and that they have “wasted their time” caring for their young. Anyone who thinks they can go around making statements like that and not get a strong reaction is kidding themselves.
Oh, you cut me to the quick! Normally we agree on pretty much everything, but that thread seemed more like a “come rant with me about how life is great without those snot nosed yard apes” than a sincere “Share a day in the life of a non-parent by choice!” It wasn’t just “people who consider themselves part of a particular societal group to give opinions and share experiences about being part of that group”. An explicit part of the OP was derision aimed at people who were members of a different group. I understand the derision flowed from resentment at being told by some jerks that their decisions were “selfish” or their decisions would make their lives “hollow”, but that doesn’t justify the throwing of stones on the part of the OP. “An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind” and all that.
As I said, I have no problem with birds of a feather getting together. But when those birds of a feather start throwing shit at birds of a different feather and deriding facets of the lives of those other birds I tend to think it belongs in the pit. I don’t hold Lobsang blameless. He should have behaved better, but to pretend there was no provocation and that the conversation was a nice, happy, harmless chat until he came along seems disingenious to me.
Enjoy,
Steven
I wouldn’t call lobsang a lump of shit, but I do think his post was sanctimonious and immature. Not sure I consider that pitworthy.
I never said that there was no derision involved. There obviously was. But the thread was still designed to be a forum for those without children to talk about that fact, and perhaps to sound off a bit about the issue. It was never designed as a debate. And, to tell you the truth, i saw the phrase “snot nosed yard apes” as little more than amusing hyperbole, rather than indicative of any real antipathy to children as such. YMMV.
I never pretended that there was no provocation. But if Lobsang felt provoked, he could have started a Pit thread himself, and simply gone to the original thread in order to link to his Pit thread. Instead, he chose to dive in and derail the no-children thread.
You might be right that the no-children thread deserves to be in the Pit. But the OP chose not to put it there, presumably for the specific reason that s/he was only interested in the opinions of a specific group of people. And, once the thread has been started, it’s the moderators’ call on whether it gets moved. Czarcasm not only thought that it was fine where it was, but made it quite clear that this was not a Great Debate, and that questioning the premise of the OP was not acceptable.
Eh I think what kun fu lola was trying to say is that it was not the place to debate whether having children was good or bad, but the place for people who didn’t have kids to talk about their experiences. As in not that their opinion isn’t allowed to be heard, just that this particular thread wasn’t the correct place to make a statement as such that lobsang made.
I am a firm believer that people should not have kids unless they are 110% sure they are ready and that they want them and are able to care for them until they turn into adults.
Having said that, I take huge exception to the implication that parents don’t have time or the money to enjoy hobbies or to do volunteer work.
I am a single mother of three kids. I (as well as my kids) have done extensive volunteer work for homeless veterans as well as animal protective services and the elderly. Why in the world would my “mom” title prevent me from doing this?
My children have their hobbies, I have mine. Some of our hobbies and the same, some are very different. My daughter paints with me, my youngest son and I are involved in sports (both watching and participating). All three kids are involved in animal rights. My oldest and I both love SIM type of computer games (except he HATES The SIMS). My sons are both into cars.
Family hobbies are not an all or nothing experience and we are all able to participate in those that interest us.
We set goals and earn and save money to do almost anything we want. I have taken them climbing glaciers in Alaska to hiking the Grand Canyon. We go to Vegas and I have taken them traveling Europe for 5 weeks. We plan on seeing Ireland and Scotland very soon.
I fail to see how being a parent gives the automatically assumption of doing nothing but changing diapers and playing taxi cab. I resent the implication that having children has made me miss out on those things “that my friends with kids wish they had”.
If anything, having kids has made all of those experiences you claim that I am missing (which I am not) so much more enjoyable because I am witnessing a young person discovering something new and wonderful right along side of me.
Again, if you don’t want kids PLEASE USE PROTECTION. There are enough unwanted children as it is, but please do not paint us parents with your wide and inaccurate paint brush.
Diane,
I agree completely. Having a child is great. On a bad day I’ll briefly think about what it used to be like…going to movies, partying…after about 5 seconds I decide that there is no comparison.
My son was the best thing that ever happened to me. I’ll have plenty of time for those other things a few years down the road.
How young is your child Clint?
I started doing things with my kids when they were really young. I don’t mean taking them to movies when they are babies or anything, but I would strap them to my back and haul them around the mountains or to serve at the homeless shelter.
Those days down the road may not be to far off for you.
Thank you Diane! You said so well what I would have said poorly.
But I suppose that we are hijacking the Pit thread!
I can’t believe Lobsang came out with the old “what if your mother had felt that way” chestnut that every CF person has heard six million times before :rolleyes: BINGO! We have Bingo! Mark your cards!
And as for what someone else in that thread said taking exception to someone else saying that parents expecting their kid to be the next Einstein/curer of cancer etc and saying it was hurtful to attack parents for having ‘hope for thier children’ Get over yourself! 99.9% of humanity, me and probably you included are mediocre nothing special people. A very few are geniuses, but to just assume that your child will be one of them is arrogant. Offensively so. The smug arrogant "MY child is going to cure cancer’ mentality when she/he is almost certainly going to be a mediocre individual like the rest of us is EXTREMELY arrogant.
It is not the same as having hopes. Not at all. It’s that very smug attitude that rubs most CF people up the wrong way, and if you can’t see that, well there’s no making you see.
oh yeah and the guy who went on about not insulting my child blah blah-get over yourself too! It isn’t your child personally being talked about, it’s the rude ill mannered kids of bad parents (breeders, in CF parlance), it isn’t about every child or parent. Stop thinking it is all about you and yours, personally. It is not about you! If I had a kid I would not take it personally, nor should you.
Ok, hang on, think I’m almost there. OP makes an enjoiner to a class of people to share experiences common to that class. OP also makes derisive statements about another class of people. We’re supposed to keep our mouths shut about the derision and stick with the rest of the OP? What if other posters reply and deride the other class of people further? Still silent?
Some guidance would be appreciated here. When I see people claiming that children are nothing more than a burden or an inconvenience and making broad generalizations about parents in general I tend to think that’s a display of ignorance. My natural instinct is to fight it. Do I need to supress this instinct so they may continue their discussion, and the derision, in peace? Would it not be better to help clear up the misunderstanding of parental realities and THEN let the discussion, sans derision based upon unrealistic stereotypes of parental realities, continue?
What is a soldier in the fight against ignorance to do?
Enjoy,
Steven