I agree with Mtgman in that there probably was an opportunity for a parent like Diane to come in and say “actually, having kids can be very fulfilling, and you don’t need to give up things you enjoy - I do X, Y, and Z with them and we all have a blast”. Sure it’s a hijack, but it’s one that clears up misconceptions without insulting anyone.
The “I have no kids and am freeeeeee, nyah nyah” attitude gets on parents’ nerves, but so does the “I used to think like you, but then I had children and now I realise how pitiful and empty my existence was” view. It’s a pity that what promised to be an interesting thread was derailed by people (myself included, unfortunately) focusing on the more inflammatory statements on both sides and ignoring the good points that others raised.
There are certainly many children who are exactly that, Snivelling brats"! You see them all over the place in our society.
And if an adult behaves like an asshole, chances are, he’s going to get CALLED one too. It’s nice that you personally wouldn’t do so, but that’s not reality.
If a child is acting like a little brat, chances are he’s going to get called on it, as well as his parents, (as they should!!).
If your (collective you) kid is behaving badly and you are insulted because someone says "hey! your bratty kid just tore up my newspaper (or whatever) then you need to check your priorities.
Or if your kid IS being a snivelling brat and whining and crying “daaa HAAADY, I want it GET it for me” for 45 minutes in the middle of Walmart. That’s NOT an insult, it’s truth, he/she IS being a snivelling brat. Either correct them or take them out of there.
This is slightly off-topic, but this child worshipping “our little darling can do no wrong” attitude that is so prevelant these days, is NOT a good thing, either for society or for the children themselves.
Oh, and I have two children of my own. One 23 and happily married, and one 12 and a pretty good kid. If and when either of them screwed up and did something bratty, you’d better BELIEVE that their victim could complain to me and know absolutely that I’d take care of it, and NOT do the “my little darling is perfect” crap.
In my day, other adults felt comfortable in correcting a wayward child not their own. We grew up being respectful, productive, good kids. Looking around? That’s not true in too many cases in this day and age.
And too many parents respond to polite “excuse me, could you please get your son to stop poking me in the ass with his toy truck”? with dirty looks and “mind your own business” nasty attitudes (sorry I thought the sanctity of my ass WAS my business, DO pardon me). So I don’t blame people for feeling that such children are “snivelling brats” or “yard apes”. They ARE.
And IF they are, then perhaps the parents that are raising them are NOT the sort of people who should have had children. Having a child is a privilege, not an “anything goes” undertaking.
Lobsang, It’s not that childfree people are “anti” (your word) children, it’s just that we get sick and fucking tired of people like mom, dad, in-laws, etc saying "When are you all having kids…haven’t y’all waited long enough…sure would be nice to have grandkids…(and at work) Isn’t it time…I got pregnant, why can’t you…Are you infertile…Hey, I know a good doc…well, lets let little Billy go in my cube and fuck shit up…Sorry, you can’t take off early because Sally has a recital…ad nauseum…
At least have a bit of perspective for the other end dude.
I sense that people are taking out their anger caused by “my kid is perfect” parents on ALL parents.
And we/I don’t like the generalization that kids are snotty lawn apes who are a waste of time and money.
Some people’s attitudes seem to be “I don’t want kids because I want to spend MY money and MY time on ME, not some snotty little shits” Can you blame anyone for not liking that attitude? We/I have nothing against the attitude - “I like kids, but I don’t want to have kids”.
Let’s everyone understand what everyone else is saying please?
So it’s not people who think having kids is a good thing you should take issue with, it is pushy annoying insensetive people in general that you should take issue with. Don’t use the annoying sods as tools for your rant against pro-children people.
And I didn’t mean ‘anti’ as a negative term, but as meaning ‘lack-of’
I wasn’t aware that I was being an anoying sod? (puling hair out)
I keep repeating that I have nothing against the childfree in general, how is that annoying? I have a problem with not having children for bad reasons. And I have a problem with people who have a dim view of children as an agegroup (it reeks of ‘ism’) I do not have a problem with the childfree (and not wanting children) in general. How many times do I have to say that??!
However, I still don’t think that anyone has a right to call other people’s reasons for remaining childless as selfish. Even if it’s because they want to be by themselves and do it like bunnies everynite without distraction, or because they want to travel.
SoooOOO? If that is the kind of personality they have, the wanderlust, the lust (lol) then what’s it to the child-laden WHAT their reasons?
That’s as ridiculous as stating that people who live in Texas are selfish is they don’t own and care for horses or something.
Why does it matter what reasons people have for not having children? It’s not as if we are having some sort of population crisis or something (even then, ummm aren’t we beings of free will?, but that’s another debate), where babies were critically needed. In fact there are plenty of babies being born, no danger of that.
Well the first one, the 23 year old was planned, I had a great childhood, one of those ridiculous Ozzie and Harriet upbringings. A huge family (meaning Aunts, Uncles, cousins, two sets of grandma and grandpa). Singing around the piano, the whole kit and kaboodle.
My 12 year old was a one time goof up, but no less welcome. He’s a great kid.
I didn’t say ALL people who want children are abusive asshats, in fact I made sure I said “many”. There are many people who have kids for the wrong reasons, SELFISH reasons, that’s the point I was trying to get across. Sorry I didn’t make it clear enough.
Wanting a child because “babies are cute” is NOT some altruistic "oh I need to have a baby, carry on my line and love, care for and bring up correctly a little adult sentiment. It’s a selfish one. Babies are cute, I want to hold and cuddle that cuteness, the PARENT gets the payoff.
Same with “I want someone to love ME”. JUST as selfish a concept as you stating that people who don’t want kids because they want other things in their lives.
Personally, I think people who decide NOT to have kids for so-called “selfish” reasons, are really being much more sensible and UNselfish than people who have kids for not entirely altruistic reasons.
And I am NOT saying all people who have kids do so for the wrong reasons. Nor am I saying that ALL people who have kids for the “wrong” reasons turn out to be absent, bad or abusive parents. I’m sure many are quite GOOD parents. I’m certainly an example of that. My son being an “oopsie” and all.
I’m saying that the fact that THEY think parenting is a good and excellent thing does NOT give them carte blanche to pass judgment on others’ reasons for remaining childless.
If a person is not willing to have children, for WHATEVER reason, then they shouldn’t. Even if that reason may seem “selfish” to others. They know what they want and what they should do, every bit as much as the would be parent who wants a child “just because and they don’t know why”.
It’s pretty mature and admirable to be able to stand by one’s convictions that way, imho.
Perhaps a mod will come along and change the title to Lobsang you lovable, sentimental lump of sugar. Afterall it looks like it’s going to stay on front page for a while.
[sub](or perhaps not. <sigh>)[/sub]
I don’t think you’re being an annoying sod. And we underSTAND that you don’t have a problem with the childless persay.
But I think where we “anti-children” or “pro-childless” people, or those of us who agree with them are getting frustrated with what you are saying and why we keep replying to you is this sentence of yours right here:
lobsang:
"I have a problem with not having children for bad reasons. "
Who are YOU, or any pro-kid person for that matter, to decide what IS, or is NOT a bad reason to not have kids?
Also insofar as you not liking a person to have the “I’m not gonna waste my money on a bunch of bratty rugrats” attitude? Has it occurred to you that the person SAYING that likely KNOWS and understands his or her own feelings about children, and that it’s a GOOD thing that a person disliking children doesn’t have any?
Lastly, the not liking the age group thing.
Kids are noisy, they’re annoying, they jump around and yell and scream, and they’re BOOOORING sometimes, the little ones frequently smell bad (sometimes reeeeeeeeallly bad), they require a LOT of energy and patience.
Come ON!! They frequently drive their parents nuts, so how can a non-child appreciative person NOT wanting to have anything to do with them and thinking that all those really loud traits equal “rugrat” or “yardape” insult someone? (for one thing, my family calls kids silly things like that as an endearment). It’s no more insulting than someone saying they don’t like wine, and you are an expert wine collector, taster etc.
I think wine is NASTY tasting. UGH, and yes, I’ve tried to develop a taste for it. Is my opinion of wine insulting? Okay, so I personally wouldn’t say “nasty tasting” in front of my host, but my feelings about wine, however expressed, shouldn’t be considered insulting it’s just a matter of taste.
But those touting the childfree lifestyle WERE talking amongst themSELVES about their feelings and opinions about children. And if a person does spout off and call a child a snivelling brat, there are a lot of “little reasons” out there that children get called that, just visit Walmart any time of day.
I personally don’t give a toss whether people choose to have kids or not. I also agree that there are some parents out there who should never have even considered it. I would not ever think of decrying an individual/couples choice to remain child-free. It’s your choice and your decision to either have or not have a child.
However, those of you who have been jumping up and down over the use of the word ‘selfish’ have not really considered the meaning of the word itself. I truly doubt that many people decline the kid option because of world overpopulation (however honourable a reason it is). I also doubt that their decision is made because they want to have more time/resources to do voluntary work in the community (although that too is to be congratulated). These things are the RESULT of being CF, but I am extremely skeptical that they are the actual reason why people choose childlessness.
From my experience of those who are CF on principle, the reasons they offer are that they enjoy their lives the way they are, and that having children would mean a curtailment of their freedom. They value their independence and their financial security and that the addition of another person into their lives would impinge upon those things. They are thinking of ‘themselves’ (and that’s absolutely AOK), but it is, by mere definition, a ‘selfish’ or ‘self centred’ choice.
Unfortunately, selfish has all sorts of negative connotations that are hard to ignore. In calling the choice to be CF ‘selfish’, it is more a matter-of-fact rather than a denigration of the individuals involved. I will defend your right to be CF 'til the cows come home. That, however, will not stop me considering it a ‘selfish’ decision.
Be realistic. Everyone has opinions. I don’t get to “decide” I only get to have an opinion.
It happens to be my opinion that “I don’t want any shits because I want to spend my money on ME ME ME, and I hate children” is not a very nice attitude. What is wrong with not liking that type of attitude.
That might be true. But it’s awfully shallow. Children are human beings, they are not annoying things. They are people. There are good things about having children.
However you do make a good point - I understand why people don’t like children. That doesn’t mean I have to like it.
As I think about it - I do have experiences of asshat families - like a dirty fat woman with 7 children all with snotty noses, she;s screaming at them for apparently nothing, or she’s letting them vandalize everything in their vicinity. I see that all the time.
I do not use those experiences in the mix when I am deciding weither I want children or not. I use the experience of being an almost parent to my 3 nieces, how rewarding it is to teach them manners and things. I can like children at the same time as knowing how crap some families can be.
And the reason I say that is that I can understand why people who don’t like children don’t like them. Maybe they haven’t enough positive experiences of children as I do, or maybe they do.
Who are YOU, or any pro-kid person for that matter, to decide what IS, or is NOT a bad reason to not have kids?
Thinking that is “not a very nice attitude” is WORLDS away from considering it a selfish reason not to have kids. You’re right. It’s not a very nice thing to say.
It STILL doesn’t mean that it’s an “incorrect” reason for a person to not have kids.
quote:
Kids are noisy, they’re annoying, they jump around and yell and scream, and they’re BOOOORING sometimes, the little ones frequently smell bad (sometimes reeeeeeeeallly bad), they require a LOT of energy and patience.
I don’t think it’s “shallow” at all. Knowing one’s self, and knowing what one can and can’t reasonably handle is having a “leg up” on things.
An analogy might be a person looking for a pet. Well, what kind of person ARE you? High energy? Get an Aussie.
Homebound and elderly, a nice cockatoo or parakeet.
You see? Knowing that the kind of noise fuss and trouble kids are is not something you could handle is UNSELFISH. To have a kid anyway, knowing that it is not something you would do well at (at the detriment to the kid) is what would be selfish.
It’s not selfish, it’s well thought out. You’re right in that expressing that by saying such things as “Shitty little brats” etc, isn’t very nice. But “not very nice” doesn’t equal wrong reason to not have kids.
Well sweetie, the world is full of people of all different types. I imagine you surround yourself with like-minded friends? Other parents etc?
The kid-hating types are doing you a favor really, you might not LIKE the idea that not everyone loves “your little darlings”. But it’s reality. And if you know how they feel, you can befriend them accordingly, or not at all if that’s your desire.
You can adapt to it, or ineffectually rail at it. It won’t change people’s minds.
Have you ever known anyone who was afraid of dogs? I ADORE dogs. But to people who are afraid of them they are horrible slobbering beasts, killers, dangerous monsters.
It doesn’t matter how much you explain to that person that YOUR dog is harmless and sweet. The phobic person will react to it as they do all dogs.
Not the greatest analogy as many childfree people dislike, or are disinterested in children rather than afraid, but hopefully it makes sense? (it’s getting late, I’m getting sleeeeepy, )
I can’t see the difference between disliking children in general and disliking, say, black people in general. Are you going to defend the disliking of black people?
I am sorry if that is an extreme thing to say, but technically it’s true isn’t it? Isn’t the general dislike of children a kind of ‘ism’?
If not - explain why not please? I’d like to know where my thinking is wrong. And I am not being sarcastic here.
I don’t actually believe child haters are on the same level as racists. The point I was making in my last post was that it is the same type of thing isn’t it?
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