Not that anyone cares what I think, or necessarily should, but for me the only sensible responses to this act are:
Clean up the mess and get on with life
Investigate, find the perpetrators and try them, as a criminal matter
Effect no major policy changes, internal or external, solely as a knee-jerk reaction to this act
Consider further military actions against another nation if, and only if, there is solid evidence that that nation financed or provided material help to the perpretrators.
Overreaction to this sort of thing accomplishes little except to waste vast amounts of money and resources, and breed further terrorism via military actions that cause more significant harm to innocent civilians than they do to their supposed targets. I submit that except for its military response in Afghanistan, the US has overreacted to an absurd degree to the WTC attacks, and I hope the UK government considers that in any response it makes to the London outrages.
This sad event is definitely bringing out the tasteless and trollish impulses in certain people, all right. A mod on my local music scene forum started a thread about the London bombings with a few comments about how evil he thought Muslims are and so forth. After several people (reasonably) posted to contend that view the mod then admitted he started the post just so he could laugh at “the tolerant fuckers” whom he knew would “chime in” with their defense of Muslims in general. Wow, using a tragic and horrific event to call out and humiliate people who don’t agree with you - what a class act.
And this colossal fuckface is supposed to be a friend of mine. We’d long ago agreed to disagree about our differing political idealolgies but I just can’t shrug this off. And several other buddies of mine are also showing their intolerant stripes in the same thread. So strike at least one name off my friends list with nary a regret.
To everyone in the great city of London: Consider yourselves hugged. Been listening to the BBC World News Service on satellite radio and am so impressed (but unsurprised) by the staidness and levelheadedness displayed by those involved. Stay strong, friends!
This sad event is definitely bringing out the tasteless and trollish impulses in certain people, all right. A mod on my local music scene forum started a thread about the London bombings with a few comments about how evil he thought Muslims are and so forth. After several people (reasonably) posted to contend that view the mod then admitted he started the post just so he could laugh at “the tolerant fuckers” whom he knew would “chime in” with their defense of Muslims in general. Wow, using a tragic and horrific event to call out and humiliate people who don’t agree with you - what a class act.
And this colossal fuckface is supposed to be a friend of mine. We’d long ago agreed to disagree about our differing political idealolgies but I just can’t shrug this off. And several other buddies of mine are also showing their intolerant stripes in the same thread. So strike at least one name off my friends list with nary a regret.
To everyone in the great city of London: Consider yourselves hugged. Been listening to the BBC World News Service on satellite radio and am so impressed (but unsurprised) by the staidness and levelheadedness displayed by those involved. Stay strong, friends!
The issue is impossible to grab hold of, how can rational people deal with irrational murderers. If you knee jerk too much, you surrender liberties and can end up with interment camps. If you surrender rights to Bureaucracies, it is hard to get them back. If you imprison people based on a profile, you have stepped way down the slippery slope towards fascism and dictatorship. If you attack countries friendly to terror, you increase terror in the world. If you negotiate with Terrorist, it empowers them. It can be very hard to decide when and where to use force vs. when to use diplomacy.
It appears after 800 years diplomacy may be working in Ireland. Of course an improved economy may explain a lot of it also.
30 years of peace accords in Israel, seemed to have made very small gains.
Would improved economics solve the crisis in the Middle East?
It seems like the most effective and humane policy.
Against my own argument: Well to do Saudi’s seemed to supply a large amount of cash to the Islamic Terrorist and middle class Irish Americans supplied a lot of cash to the IRA in the past.
My gut feeling is that if a person has a good chance at a job that allows them to support their family and has the rights to their beliefs, they are more tolerant of others and at least less likely to be violent.
Is it true the KKK in the south was mostly made up of poor rural whites or is this thinking a myth?
Seems like rich nuts still need lots of very poor people to have effective terrorism.
You put that much better than I would have. I was trying to explain this very thing to co-workers today–we need to treat these as the criminal acts they are and quit giving these whackos the power to hold us in their thrall. Criminy, the ringleaders are just like any other cult leader; they play on the weaknesses of their followers. Tracking down the criminal leaders and removing the impetus for so many new people to join up is the way to go. Governments of “free” countries need to be deliberate and thoughtful about the way we approach these lawbreakers. I am not underestimating the amount of support that some terrorists get from various nations, but I think we should treat the terrorists as the criminals they are.
World Eater, Trunk, Happy - The first co-worker I saw this morning had CCN up and was reading about the bombings. My first words, “Do you feel safer?” It’s the same thing my husband said when I told him about London. You’re not alone.
I’m wondering how long it’ll be before the right-wing insta-pundits in the U.S. find a way to blame the “liberals” (read: anyone not as looney as themselves) for this.
I’m sure the word “appeasement” will be involved somehow.
The question which remained unanswered by the NTSB investigation into EgyptAir flight 990 was why the relief first officer acted as he did. If he was a sole actor or part of some greater organization isn’t known. The Egyptian Civil Aviation Authority disputed the NTSB findings, and seemed to feel that equipment malfunction was the cause. Abstract and report here.
Regarding AAL flight 587, the first officer overreacted to wake turbulence and pushed the airframe beyond what it was engineered to withstand, which is why the vertical stabilizer came off. Report here-large .pdf
I’ve been flipping between Sky news and BBC news 24 (with an occasional visit to fox, cnn, etc…) and I have been impressed by how cool and calm, even sort of more alive the londoners (civilians and emergency services alike) are about this. There seems to be a spirt that kicks into life when the city of London is being bullied. I expect all those thousands and thousands of people who have got a very long journey home ahead of them are not feeling the least bit disgruntled about it. It goes without saying that this is a tragedy for all those people who have lost loved ones, and all those people who’s lives are going to be severely changed because of this. I am not for this ‘war on terror’ but I at least like to think that Britain, for one, does not give in to threats. Spain pulled out of Iraq because of their attack. I know for damn sure Britain isn’t going to do so. If anything this attack would strengthen britian’s resolve to sort out the scum of the earth aka terrorists.
So someone explain to me why we’re not going after Osama if top US officials say they know where he is. I know that part of the argument is that we don’t want to destabilize Pakistan, but when you figure in the Bali Bombings, Madrid, and now London, I have to ask: How the fuck could it get any worse? It’s only a matter of time before the sheep pimps hit the US again, and WTF are we going to do then?
Very good question.
It should be noted, though, that finding Osama isn’t going to stop this stuff; if anything, there might even be a spike up afterwards if he is found.
Not that that excuses the useless fuck ups leading us in DC.
featherlou, I understand, believe me. It’s just that for some reason this is hitting me very hard. They’ve hit both my countries. This should have been a joyous day with Londoners celebrating getting the Olympics. Instead, I woke up to horror this morning. Between this and some other stuff in my life which looks petty in comparison (I got a traffic ticket yesterday morning and learned I’ll be having knee surgery yesterday afternoon), I’m not up to being a saint right now. Give me a day or so and I’ll don my usual saintly countenance again. :rolleyes: Right now, well, at least the anger’s finally faded, but I still don’t understand the inhumanity behind actions like this. I don’t think I want to either.
I’ve raged enough. Tonight, I suppose, I’ll mourn.
Agree strongly. Everyone behaves as if killing OB would be like killing Hitler to end WWII
There are thousands of Osamas waiting to take his place. And the cause has almost nothing to do with the leader. When the leader dies the cause lives on.
Yes, perhaps they will take their lead from the US response and:
(1) figure out who was responsible
(2) figure out where those people are hiding
(3) make an ultimatum to the leaders of that country
(4) when that ultimatum is ignored, invade that country, allying themselves with local rebel leaders, and trying to minimize civilian casualties where possible
Seems like a pretty good plan, eh?
Oh, wait, I forgot. There are more steps:
(5) stop actually chasing the people who were responsible in the first place, and downplay their importance
(6) bomb the shit out of, and invade, a totally unrelated country, albeit one that’s nearby who we kind of don’t like
(7) get caught in a quagmire
(8) question the patriotism and manhood of anyone who disagrees with you
Anyhow, enough US-centric partisanship… does anyone know of a charitable fund for the victims I can contribute to? (Although I kind of suspect that any such fund will get a HUGE inpouring of support, so perhaps this is a good time to be motivated to give money to other good causes.)
My uncle, aunt, cousin, and her 3 children are all in London right now. Fortunately, they’re all OK.
I know of no particular fund, and I doubt one will be started. However, the Salvation Army seem to have been very active on the ground today, helping where they could. If I were to pick out one organisation, it’d be them.