Lower share of female regulars. What to do?

[QuickSilver]

@MandaJo

I guess my hope is that by closing threads and saying “why don’t your repost that in a way that doesn’t sound gross”, we can help some people find the line–to see what we are talking about. We have posters who have learned a ton over the years because we kept pointing things out to them.

I’m not a mind reader, but my strong suspicion is that much of the time, they posted in exactly the tone they intended and are unlikely to want to re-phrase. Modded or not, it’s often, “mission accomplished”. But I’m cynical like that.

[DSeid]

@Lasciel

You’ve partly answered your question about what you’re not seeing - you’re seeing it now in this thread. This shit is what we wade through to participate all the time. We ignore or scroll past shutdowns, leering comments, the hijacking of the thread with giant posts of ‘all about MEEEEE I’m the man I have the penis talk about ME pay attention to MY IDEAS because I’M IMPORTANT,’ the casual resistance to (or just straight up ignoring) any suggestion or post a woman makes, **even the lovely language choices where we have ‘men’ and ‘females’ who post. ** …

@Lasciel

1. ‘here’ means this BOARD as a whole … This thread (and even actually the Pit thread, all things considered) are not currently wretchedly awful to wade through. … and ALSO, nice try there, don’t think I don’t notice you’re trying to neg my whole post by nitpicking one element.

[Bolding mine of course]

Okay, when you state “now in this thread” and give examples you mean “this BOARD as a whole”.

Clear to me now.
In case you don’t realize it I am the poster who started this particular thread which is asking for more official board policy changes to address the declining share of fema … women Dopers, based on how many of them seem to experience this site. I was hoping, unrealistically obviously, that this thread could stay on that subject, having established that what you describe is the experienced reality for not only you but for many other Dopers and potential Dopers of your gender, even if many male Dopers do not perceive the board that way.

I was not giving a frog about your whole post, I just have a hard time letting false statements stand. The statement that “this shit” has been occurring “in this thread” was false. The rest of your post? It’s been said over and over again and now you and those with opposing views are spinning wheels here as well as in other threads. No mod I so I cannot force you to take it to the Pit thread, but this last post, yeah, I care a little more. This last post I am “negging” on, and when I “neg” I do it straight up.
To people behaving like jerks on all sides - this thread is aimed at trying to have an open discussion brainstorming on problem solving. There is not much denying that there is a declining share of female Dopers. There is not much denying that this is because women who might otherwise be attracted to this site’s content are experiencing aspects of it that feel, minimally, unwelcome. I personally see that as a problem. Do others agree that such is a problem (whether or not they agree about what “reality” is)? If you agree it is a problem, then what are the possible solutions to that problem that do not cause more harms than goods?

PLEASE if you want to rehash how big of jerks male posters here are, or rehash your belief that women here are seeing something that is not intended, or they they “should” be able to deal with it … please take it to one of the other threads.
Manda JO, THANK YOU for offering some constructive discussion! I’d still love to hear some feedback from more mods about the pros and cons of doing such and just raising the expectations inherent in the Penthouse and Jerk rules.

There IS a balance to be hit. I, personally and selfishly, want diversity of membership because I believe that contributes to the diversity of perspectives and ideas that make for interesting discussion. In the general sense, if everyone in a room, at the table, is like me then discussions are going to be less interesting and I will both learn and be challenged less. That is not in my selfish best interest. (Yup, all about MEEEE! I have a penis! )Your suggestion is mindful of the need to preserve that diversity inclusive of subjects and viewpoints that can risk offending some. Personally I like.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@MandaJo

<snip>
My suggestion would be that threads like that be shut down immediately, and the OP invited to re-open a thread asking the same question without the “flavor text” that dehumanizes women (or whatever group). No warning, just “The way you phrase this makes it sound like women are just things in your hypothetical. If you’re interested in talking about whether sex, housework, or cooking is more important in a marriage, please open a new threat and write it in a way that assumes everyone in a marriage is a person”.

I think that would work. In the recent example by Urbanredneck, the whole tone of his thread would have been changed by, “When a beautiful woman starts at work… what have you seen?” becoming, “When an attractive person starts at work…what have you seen?” That invites everyone into the discussion, instead of excluding women like his thread did.

I also think QuickSilver is right - people who post threads like Urbanredneck’s know exactly what tone they’re setting, and that is their intention.

[Bone]

@MandaJo

I think one issue is that the moderation tends to focus on the essence of a post, in the most positive way. So someone posts something like 'Imagine a genie appears and gives you a choice: a wife that always put out, a wife that cooks like a dream, or a wife that keeps the house clean and running like a top. Which do you chose?" And someone says “ewww, that’s gross, you’re talking like women are dogs or robots, like they are plug-in-play toys” and then the mods come in and say “This was a gross way to say this, but I can see an interesting question here–what is the key to a happy marriage?” And everyone nods their heads. Like Slug’s drawings ( and I agree about those!), we are supposed to ignore the grossness because it’s just the rhetoric, and discuss the “real” question. And so the grossness is quickly forgotten by people that weren’t really chilled by it. However, it lingers for women–because we see in posts like that the lurking possibility that the OP and the audience he was writing for (which clearly isn’t me) really do think about wives and marriage and women like that—as products with different feature bundles.

My suggestion would be that threads like that be shut down immediately, and the OP invited to re-open a thread asking the same question without the “flavor text” that dehumanizes women (or whatever group). No warning, just “The way you phrase this makes it sound like women are just things in your hypothetical. If you’re interested in talking about whether sex, housework, or cooking is more important in a marriage, please open a new threat and write it in a way that assumes everyone in a marriage is a person”.

I also think this is a good suggestion. It’s not something that lends itself to bright line rules, but as a guiding principle it could be viable. I think we should entertain a concise way to convey this sentiment and see if it’s workable.

[Amara_1]

@Cat_Whisperer

I think that would work. In the recent example by Urbanredneck, the whole tone of his thread would have been changed by, “When a beautiful woman starts at work… what have you seen?” becoming, “When an attractive person starts at work…what have you seen?” That invites everyone into the discussion, instead of excluding women like his thread did.

I also think QuickSilver is right - people who post threads like Urbanredneck’s know exactly what tone they’re setting, and that is their intention.

YES and YES! This is a fantastic suggestion!

Also agree with Lasciel that the loudest voices set the tone. I see it on this board with regard to both racism and sexism. Also agree that they will raise holy hell about these changes and the question then becomes - which voices are being listened to? For too long, it seems like the heard voices are the sexist and racist ones.

[MandaJo]

I would also point out that I don’t mean that threads have to be gender-neutral. Gender specific don’t have to be icky, and gender neutral can be. Like, I don’t mind “Who do you like better, Ginger or Mary Ann?” or even “Who is more attractive: Ginger or Mary Ann?” But I’m really uncomfortable with “You have to choose: Ginger or Mary Ann?”. It sounds like a slave auction or something. Like, once you make that choice, they will silently go along.

Up until now, when we’ve objected to the way things are phrased, it’s often been dismissed as so superficial as to be not worth bothering about. But the way things are phrased is often the problem: it sets the tone that this is a boy’s club and the women are visitors who need to roll with it.

[Amara_1]

Sorry for the consecutive reply.
I also agree that having more female mods would help tremendously. Right now, IvoryTowerDenizen is bearing the bulk of this by herself and it’s not fair. I’d suggest folks like MandaJo or Lamia or Kimstu.

[Morgenstern]

@Amara_1

Sorry for the consecutive reply.
I also agree that having more female mods would help tremendously. Right now, IvoryTowerDenizen is bearing the bulk of this by herself and it’s not fair. I’d suggest folks like MandaJo or Lamia or Kimstu.

In all fairness, the male mods have done a great job of listening and understanding. They sat up and listened. Suggesting that more female mods would make any difference isn’t really true.

But more female mods like Spice Weasel (and the other one, whatshername in IMHO) would be awesome too. Sparkly high heeled jackboots are still PG.

[octopus]

@Amara_1

Sorry for the consecutive reply.
I also agree that having more female mods would help tremendously. Right now, IvoryTowerDenizen is bearing the bulk of this by herself and it’s not fair. I’d suggest folks like MandaJo or Lamia or Kimstu.

I don’t know if the next mod has to be or should be female but if so I’d nominate monstro. Iirc, she’s a she.

[Guinastasia]

@Mr.Nylock

I think you make good points, and I especially some of the stuff you wrote in the other threads, but I think this goes too far. Or maybe it doesn’t go too far I don’t know.

Me, personally, I like it when I know that people think I’m trash or a loser or a dumb piece of shit for having a blue collar job, I enjoy how blunt and condescending MSmith is - its refreshing, get it all out. Not everyone is like that though, and maybe my situation isn’t analogous.

You really think that kind of shit you take for having a blue collar job is the same as what women have to deal with? :dubious:

[Amara_1]

@Morgenstern

In all fairness, the male mods have done a great job of listening and understanding. They sat up and listened. Suggesting that more female mods would make any difference isn’t really true.

But more female mods like Spice Weasel (and the other one, whatshername in IMHO) would be awesome too. Sparkly high heeled jackboots are still PG.

I’m not denying that the male mods aren’t great and they listened but they didn’t *notice *it. That’s where diversity in perspective bears benefits. I absolutely think that female mods would have noticed the tone in a way that the male mods would not have. I also don’t think that they always fully understand/see the issue because it’s not just this message board. It’s something that they will always have to strive to see (and they are listening and trying!) but their default perspective will always be a male one and, hence, they may not see some of the issues.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Guinastasia

You really think that kind of shit you take for having a blue collar job is the same as what women have to deal with? :dubious:

Maybe it is, maybe it is not. I would not know for certain. My point is not to get into a debate about who is more oppressed.

Really I’ve learned a lot from all the black people I work with - most of them are of the mindset that they would rather know who they are dealing with, they’d rather have have racism out in the open then have it hidden behind social propriety. I think there is something to be said for that and I can relate to it in my own way based upon what I experience - even though nothing I experience is as severe as what they experience.

[Sunny_Daze]

@Morgenstern

In all fairness, the male mods have done a great job of listening and understanding. They sat up and listened. Suggesting that more female mods would make any difference isn’t really true.

But more female mods like Spice Weasel (and the other one, whatshername in IMHO) would be awesome too. Sparkly high heeled jackboots are still PG.

“whatshername”? :dubious:

[Morgenstern]

@Sunny_Daze

“whatshername”? :dubious:

Yeah, if I say her name too much, she’ll think I’m stalking her.

[QuickSilver]

@QuickSilver

I’m not a mind reader, but my strong suspicion is that much of the time, they posted in exactly the tone they intended and are unlikely to want to re-phrase. Modded or not, it’s often, “mission accomplished”. But I’m cynical like that.

Q.E.D.

[Drunky_Smurf]

@Cat_Whisperer

I also think QuickSilver is right - people who post threads like Urbanredneck’s know exactly what tone they’re setting, and that is their intention.

Urbanredneck admitted in post 140 that he knew the tone he was setting and decided to do it anyways because it would be “fun”.

ETA: what Quicksilver just said.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@Morgenstern

In all fairness, the male mods have done a great job of listening and understanding. They sat up and listened. Suggesting that more female mods would make any difference isn’t really true.

But more female mods like Spice Weasel (and the other one, whatshername in IMHO) would be awesome too. Sparkly high heeled jackboots are still PG.

Feeling capricious and arbitrary.

Tread lightly, my friend.

[kayaker]

@morgenstern

yeah, if i say her name too much, she’ll think i’m stalking her.

lSAY MY NAME!

/channeling ITD

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@kayaker

lSAY MY NAME!

/channeling ITD

I AM the one who mods

[Penfeather]

@Amara_1

I’m not denying that the male mods aren’t great and they listened but they didn’t *notice *it. That’s where diversity in perspective bears benefits. I absolutely think that female mods would have noticed the tone in a way that the male mods would not have. I also don’t think that they always fully understand/see the issue because it’s not just this message board. It’s something that they will always have to strive to see (and they are listening and trying!) but their default perspective will always be a male one and, hence, they may not see some of the issues.

Do you think having a few more female mods would help?