Lower share of female regulars. What to do?

[SmartAleq]

In the Pit thread I responded to this post:

@Jane Elliott

It’s troubling that one of the main things offered as a solution to objectifying threads was for women to have threads in which they objectified men. Doubling the objectification isn’t a solution to anything.

With this:

That is, unfortunately, an all too common response. Men tend to think in terms of retaliation–if you shove me I’m gonna punch you, that’ll show you! Women tend to NOT think that way because when we’re in an altercation with a man we’re all too aware that they’re generally more physically able and emotionally willing to hurt the shit out of us so that’s not where we go with things. Women are more likely to seek reconciliation and finding a way for everyone to be able to handle the situation even if it means everyone is not completely happy with the results. This is what we DO–it’s our most used skill set in raising children and dealing with other women. We’re aware that going for the crushing win usually just sets us up for an even worse altercation down the road so consensus and onboarding is just good sense and avoids further trouble.

The problem is that to toxic masculinity, this looks like weakness and puts blood in the water–it makes them act worse and worse trying to goad us into a male-style retaliatory stance. Which we know is a lose/lose for us–either we take the bait and get creamed way worse than we ever wanted it to go or we back away from the encounter, then have to sit with our guts twisted up as the fucking asshole man crows and struts about how he “won.”

Which is why we’re so good at fading out, ghosting and leaving the cockerels to rule their dungheaps unchallenged. Because it’s just not worth it.

And it was requested that I also post it here. So I did.

[CarnalK]

Well, that was a stupid suggestion for a more obvious reason as well. It’s not like there’s zero women here, so if they wanted more Archie vs Reggie threads, they’d have done it already. They weren’t waiting for octopus’ permission.

[Delicious]

@SmartAleq

In the Pit thread I responded to this post:

With this:

And it was requested that I also post it here. So I did.

I think it’s fairly disingenuous to say your opinion applies to all women, as a counter-anecdote, I’ve been physically attacked by more women than men and I understand bouncers generally have the same experience because women are shielded from the consequences of shitty behaviour by societal norms ‘don’t hit women’ is a fairly standard lesson for boys.

For the few posters here that I’m aware of the gender, I’ve only noticed pile ons and constant shittyness directed towards male Dopers.

You have to consider what you actually want, male posters to act female? Won’t happen. Treat everyone like you’d treat a man? Fairest option but you wouldn’t like the results. Everyone to report anything they find offensive? Will kill the board.

Anything else, or is this one of those male/female disconnects where men try to come up with solutions to problems but that’s not what is wanted?

[octopus]

@Broomstick

Right… they don’t tolerate cyber-bulling, but the posts and threads that make up an incident of cyber-bulling remain for all time. So to someone coming in from outside it might look like it’s tolerated.

They claim they don’t. Yet organized groups still do perhaps with implicit support.

And it certainly did occur - not to mention a couple of PM’s that were objectionable, and one recent one that was quite cruel which wound up with the offender banned before I ever saw the PM so I presume I was not the only victim that time. Then there were the demands for video of incidents from 40 years ago, long before ubiquitous video was a thing, accusations that, basically, boiled down to me conducting a 15 year long con (which is weirdly flattering, the notion that I am capable of such long-term planning and execution of such a thing, but still insulting as to my integrity), accusations I was a sock, then, topping it off, one of the offenders demanding copies of my pilot’s license and other personal information that really SHOULD have been shut down immediately by the mods as a board policy violation and attempt at doxxing.

So yes, while the bullying was dealt with to some degree, and has (for now) abated, I think it could have been dealt with more assertively and there could have been some actual clean up of the offending posts or, I dunno, official statement that this has been determined to be an example of cyber-bullying and is not acceptable on this forum.

It’s easy to dismiss bullying, just as it’s easy to dismiss sexism or racism or any other -ism, if you yourself are not the target. For as long as I have been here moderation has been light on this board which means some offensive material slips past the net. This board has been around what, nearly two decades? Two decades of allowing a low level of offense can’t be explained away as a one time incident or just one mod, it’s an on-going pattern that demonstrates that yes, the -isms are tolerated here and you can be targeted as long as the bullies don’t go too far… so you both have people leaving, and people deciding not to join and the board gets slowly more middle-class, more male, and more white over time.

I think those are two subjects. One is are uncomfortable topics allowed to be discussed civilly? Which I think should be the case. And two is a social mob justice allowed to exist because it might actually be an unofficially convenient tool?

[CarnalK]

@Delicious

I think it’s fairly disingenuous to say your opinion applies to all women, as a counter-anecdote, I’ve been physically attacked by more women than men

What are the raw numbers? How many men have attacked you and how many women?

[octopus]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

I’ll comment:

Declining female membership, in and of itself, is not the issue I care about. The culture of the board is what I care about. Declining female membership is a symptom of the culture problem. Right now we are discussing this issue, but is not the only issue to be, or has been, discussed. I do think that the “female unwelcoming*” culture is more pervasive, as it rears itself across many different threads, and requires a more complex and nuanced solution.

Making this board feel welcome to everyone is. I am equally appalled by “racial IQ” threads, anti-trans language, anti-Semitic or anti-muslim language, etc. Fixing board culture may result in higher membership of people who are of color, international, LBGTQ, atheist, muslim, Jewish, female, and that’s great, but increasing enrollment is not my goal, per se.

*I have yet to find a good term to describe this. I don’t like “male-centric”, misogynistic, but I can’t find a way to describe it that doesn’t sound wrong.

Are you talking about language that is specifically meant to offend like an attack on a group, other than Republicans, such as “women drivers are bad!” or all topics that discuss controversial issues? There is a huge difference. Even if at times there are efforts to conflate the two.

[octopus]

@Bone

For me, I participate most in GD and Elections so I think my exposure where some of the incident examples are located is lower. I like to argue/discuss current events, etc. and the social aspect is not as high a focus for me as it is for others.

I heavily favor the ability for open discussion about any topic. Ultimately in the marketplace of ideas we should expect good ideas and good arguments to win out. That only works if the marketplace has a certain critical mass and this can be thwarted if the environment is unwelcoming enough to drive membership and participation below that critical mass. The question is really how to balance the fact that uncomfortability may cause declining participation and an openess to any topic will inherently cause some uncomfortability. So in my mind it’s not necessarily a bright line rule, but how to best strike that balance.

@Bone

We’re not 4chan or reddit, but the guiderails that are in place are primarily to encourage and foster discourse. The fact is that encouraging a wide range of discussion means that some of it will be uninteresting and some will be offensive. Is it acceptable that some amount of discussion will be offensive? That’s a question in my mind - what level is that where it is okay then flips to not okay?

I agree with this 100%. The only problem is that any line is going to be complained about by some. And people are more prone to complain so there you have it. Which is why I go back to my original suggestion. Read threads and content you personally have an affinity for. Now, I just have to take my own advice.

[CarnalK]

And I’ll add SmartAleq said women and men “tend to” act that way, Delicious, so it’s quite disingenuous of you to say she meant her opinion to apply to all.

[TruCelt]

@TruCelt

With regards to new female members, I think one major contributor is probably the cartoons on the main page.
. . .
Of course, I can’t find any of the really super bad examples at the moment. :smack:
. . .

And right on cue, today he has outdone himself. Apparently an exaggerated conical bra, paired with a thong, on an off-balance floundering female is necessary to illustrate a column about ticks. Because that’s what we all wear in the woods. . . or something.

@octopus

You might be going too far. Burning it all down and starting fresh might be the solution at that point.

This is an example of what I personally call a “Shutdown comment.” They are a primary problem in my view. Just surfing the edge between dry humor and threadshitting, the shutdown comment has the effect of stopping the conversation. It’s a common reaction to minority opinions. The above is a classic method - over exaggerating and catastrophizing an inherently reasonable suggestion to make it impossible even to consider.

I think in some cases (and possibly in this one) it really is meant as dry humor. But the effect when more than one chimes in is to bury the point that’s been made without openly refuting it.

Mod attention to shutdowns would be the one of the most impactful changes I can think of.

@Broomstick

Frankly, I have always found the cartoon illustrations of the Dope revolting . . .

Thank you. I was genuinely afraid to bring it up, and it’s a relief to hear that others feel the same. I’m always loath to suggest coaching an artist, but after today’s drawing? Yeah, it’s needed.

[octopus]

@TruCelt

And right on cue, today he has outdone himself. Apparently an exaggerated conical bra, paired with a thong, on an off-balance floundering female is necessary to illustrate a column about ticks. Because that’s what we all wear in the woods. . . or something.

This is an example of what I personally call a “Shutdown comment.” They are a primary problem in my view. Just surfing the edge between dry humor and threadshitting, the shutdown comment has the effect of stopping the conversation. It’s a common reaction to minority opinions. The above is a classic method - over exaggerating and catastrophizing an inherently reasonable statement to make it impossible even to consider.

I think in some cases (and possibly in this one) it really is meant as dry humor. But the effect when more than one chimes in is to bury the point that’s been made without openly refuting it.

Mod attention to shutdowns would be the one of the most impactful changes I can think of.

Thank you. I was genuinely afraid to bring it up, and it’s a relief to hear that others feel the same. I’m always loath to suggest coaching an artist, but after today’s drawing? Yeah,it’s needed.

Concerning my so-called shut down comment: it was meant to be an example of hyperbolic exaggeration for comic intent. It obviously failed.

But I do like Slug’s art. It’s very styilized and ridiculous. It fits the tone and is iconic at this point.

[DSeid]

I suspect though that the artwork is not under control of the board, let alone the mods, but whatever entity owns the property now.

[TruCelt]

@Shodan

. . .
You know what might help, IMO? Not having these struggle sessions every damn time someone sets a toe outside anything defined as Correct Thought by some purple-haired college professor who wants to get on the tenure track in the Grievance Studies Department at Wearebetterthan U.
. . .

This is another example of a shutdown. After a long post in which his own views are laid out at length, Sho declares the whole thing to be far too difficult and we should really just stop burdening the rest of the board with this discussion*.

*Now that we have taken to the time to read through and consider HIS views, that is.

[Broomstick]

@Delicious

How about making the boards pink?

You do understand that stereotyping a group is bigotry and offensive, yes?

[RTFirefly]

You know what might help, Shodan? Listen to the women who are trying to explain to us why they feel this board is hostile or hard to deal with. Given that there are a whole bunch of posters who feel the same way, it’s not just some isolated complaint by some random poster. How about we listen, and take them seriously?

Because I know when I have a problem, and it’s gotten to the point where I need to talk about it with others, it feels really crappy to have my complaints dismissed or ridiculed, or if the person I’m talking to feeds me back a very slanted version of what I’m saying and what I must want.

Because I’m seeing a lot of posts from guys like you and octopus that basically say, “fuck your problems.” I got tired of reading this crap over and over again, about 60 posts into this thread. I wanted to read the whole thread before commenting, but there was only so much I could take.

And if I feel that way, I can only imagine how the women in this thread that I have a great deal of respect for must feel about this deluge of dismissal.

I’ll be honest: I don’t completely understand what they’re talking about. Stuff like Skald’s little Easter eggs of misogyny are pretty obvious, but I want to get a better grip on the more everyday stuff that gets under their skin. But it’s imposssible to do if half the conversation consists of people dropping in to say the conversation itself is ridiculous and shouldn’t be happening.

I’ve had the good fortune to have grown up around intelligent women, I really like smart women who speak their minds, and I don’t want to see them desert this place because they find it less than hospitable.

And the first step is that we guys - at least those of us who want to be part of this conversation, and not just shut it down over and over again - need to get a better handle on how they’re experiencing the Dope. This is a conversation a number of us really want to have.

But it’s damned hard to have it when people keep jumping in to make a hash of the whole conversation.

So how about those of you who aren’t interested in the sort of conversation that involves listening to the other side and trying to understand what those people are trying to say, don’t go away mad, just go away. Take your own advice and DON’T OPEN THESE THREADS, if this conversation upsets you so much.

Thank you.

Regards,
Rufus

[RTFirefly]

P.S. Slug’s artwork really IS offensive. If you want a metric ton of examples, just google “Slug Signorino,” and click “Images.” Jeez. Maybe that stuff was funny back in 1973, but c’mon.

[Broomstick]

@RTFirefly

And if I feel that way, I can only imagine how the women in this thread that I have a great deal of respect for must feel about this deluge of dismissal.

How does it make me feel?

Well, I’ve been here for 17 years through all manner of ups, downs, and sideways and occasionally wrestled with opponents in the BBQ Pit. In all that time I have put one and only one poster on “ignore”.

Until today. Today, a member prominent in these threads earned the #2 spot on my ignore list because, honestly, if the choice was between having to continue to deal with him or leaving the board I would, after 17 years, leave this board.

Fortunately, because of the “ignore” function, I won’t feel a need to leave. And frankly, given how much he seems to love the sound of his own “voice”, I doubt he’ll notice my lack of response to his posts.

[Morgenstern]

@Shodan

…

Or take another of the examples of things that offend women - the “Ginger vs. Mary Ann: Who’s Hotter?” The suggestion that these be labeled so that the susceptible can be warned and not open the thread was largely rejected with scorn. So, do we say “women shouldn’t be judged by their physical appearance” and ban them? Women, especially women in TV and movies, are judged by their physical appearance. That is, really and truly, a thing, and everybody knows it. Men are much more influenced by women’s physical appearance than women are of men’s. That is not going to go away, not now, not ever. If we try to shame that, we are going to lose a great deal more men than we gain women. Men cannot be shamed out of finding women physically attractive. That is not being adolescent, it’s being a man.

…

Regards,
Shodan

Shodan. The women aren’t demanding Michelangelo’s David be covered with a towel

[Delicious]

@Broomstick

You do understand that stereotyping a group is bigotry and offensive, yes?

It is? Thanks for womansplaining that to me.

[octopus]

@RTFirefly

You know what might help, Shodan? Listen to the women who are trying to explain to us why they feel this board is hostile or hard to deal with. Given that there are a whole bunch of posters who feel the same way, it’s not just some isolated complaint by some random poster. How about we listen, and take them seriously?

Because I know when I have a problem, and it’s gotten to the point where I need to talk about it with others, it feels really crappy to have my complaints dismissed or ridiculed, or if the person I’m talking to feeds me back a very slanted version of what I’m saying and what I must want.

Because I’m seeing a lot of posts from guys like you and octopus that basically say, “fuck your problems.” I got tired of reading this crap over and over again, about 60 posts into this thread. I wanted to read the whole thread before commenting, but there was only so much I could take.

And if I feel that way, I can only imagine how the women in this thread that I have a great deal of respect for must feel about this deluge of dismissal.

I’ll be honest: I don’t completely understand what they’re talking about. Stuff like Skald’s little Easter eggs of misogyny are pretty obvious, but I want to get a better grip on the more everyday stuff that gets under their skin. But it’s imposssible to do if half the conversation consists of people dropping in to say the conversation itself is ridiculous and shouldn’t be happening.

I’ve had the good fortune to have grown up around intelligent women, I really like smart women who speak their minds, and I don’t want to see them desert this place because they find it less than hospitable.

And the first step is that we guys - at least those of us who want to be part of this conversation, and not just shut it down over and over again - need to get a better handle on how they’re experiencing the Dope. This is a conversation a number of us really want to have.

But it’s damned hard to have it when people keep jumping in to make a hash of the whole conversation.

So how about those of you who aren’t interested in the sort of conversation that involves listening to the other side and trying to understand what those people are trying to say, don’t go away mad, just go away. Take your own advice and DON’T OPEN THESE THREADS, if this conversation upsets you so much.

Thank you.

Regards,
Rufus

Since I’ve never once said that I’d appreciate if you wouldn’t make things up and attribute them to me. That’s far more of a contribution to a hostile environment than talking about Betty or Ginger.

[Lasciel]

@RTFirefly

You know what might help, Shodan? Listen to the women who are trying to explain to us why they feel this board is hostile or hard to deal with. Given that there are a whole bunch of posters who feel the same way, it’s not just some isolated complaint by some random poster. How about we listen, and take them seriously?

Because I know when I have a problem, and it’s gotten to the point where I need to talk about it with others, it feels really crappy to have my complaints dismissed or ridiculed, or if the person I’m talking to feeds me back a very slanted version of what I’m saying and what I must want.

Because I’m seeing a lot of posts from guys like you and octopus that basically say, “fuck your problems.” I got tired of reading this crap over and over again, about 60 posts into this thread. I wanted to read the whole thread before commenting, but there was only so much I could take.

And if I feel that way, I can only imagine how the women in this thread that I have a great deal of respect for must feel about this deluge of dismissal.

I’ll be honest: I don’t completely understand what they’re talking about. Stuff like Skald’s little Easter eggs of misogyny are pretty obvious, but I want to get a better grip on the more everyday stuff that gets under their skin. But it’s imposssible to do if half the conversation consists of people dropping in to say the conversation itself is ridiculous and shouldn’t be happening.

I’ve had the good fortune to have grown up around intelligent women, I really like smart women who speak their minds, and I don’t want to see them desert this place because they find it less than hospitable.

And the first step is that we guys - at least those of us who want to be part of this conversation, and not just shut it down over and over again - need to get a better handle on how they’re experiencing the Dope. This is a conversation a number of us really want to have.

But it’s damned hard to have it when people keep jumping in to make a hash of the whole conversation.

So how about those of you who aren’t interested in the sort of conversation that involves listening to the other side and trying to understand what those people are trying to say, don’t go away mad, just go away. Take your own advice and DON’T OPEN THESE THREADS, if this conversation upsets you so much.

Thank you.

Regards,
Rufus

You’ve partly answered your question about what you’re not seeing - you’re seeing it now in this thread. This shit is what we wade through to participate all the time. We ignore or scroll past shutdowns, leering comments, the hijacking of the thread with giant posts of ‘all about MEEEEE I’m the man I have the penis talk about ME pay attention to MY IDEAS because I’M IMPORTANT,’ the casual resistance to (or just straight up ignoring) any suggestion or post a woman makes, even the lovely language choices where we have ‘men’ and ‘females’ who post.

That’s it. All that stuff you said above that is driving you nuts in this thread because you’re trying to actually converse and get consensus and have solid substantive discourse. That’s the ‘other stuff’ that we’re talking about. And honestly I think that stuff is worse overall than the few posters who just are straight up ranting misogynists. I at least know what to expect from them. The random ‘minor’ shit? It can come from anyone, be anywhere, and it’s not really reportable, so I just sigh or roll my eyes or back out of the thread and move on. But for my casual participation here? It’s death by a thousand cuts.