I think that that’s more of a matter of cultural differences. Ginsburg comes from a very different world from Don, who’s probably never heard the word “chutzpah” in his life.
I definitely didn’t see a hint of attraction between Peggy and Dawn. Peggy was drunk (which, combined with her behavior at Don’s birthday, could be a red flag) and then embarrassed at having revealed a bit of racism.
I am curious what Joan is going to do in terms of money. I can’t imagine that she can afford that apartment alone. I’m equally sure that Roger will ensure that neither Joan or the baby will want for anything.
I think that Ginsberg’s behavior is continuing the scenario we saw with Megan in the season premiere, where those outside the office just don’t understand these people. Ginsberg was the only one taken aback by the rest of the office gawking over the murder photos, for instance.
That said, I got exactly the opposite out of that scene. Ginsberg was right; there was no way Don was going to fire him over that. SCDP would lose an employee with good ideas whom clients like to some other agency, they’d have to hire someone else to handle Mohawk, and they might have wound up losing the account. Ginsberg just seems really confident.
Are you serious? This question strikes me as bizarre. Joan specifically tells Roger not to stop when they have their post-mugging sex. She specifically asks Dr. Rape to stop and he forces himself on her.
Joan & Dr. Rape: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPDglMH5veY
Joan & Roger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvyXn2U_xDo
Do you not know what the word rape means?
I don’t think they were trying to trick anyone*, but it’s definitely some pretty heavy foreshadowing of the life Sally has ahead of her - which I’m assuming will involve a lot of pills.
(ok, maybe a little. It’s still a television drama afterall).
The long hiatus might have played tricks with my memory but didn’t Peggy’s photographer friend (the girl with the photo sheet this last ep) come onto her in a previous season and Peggy politely told her that ain’t her thing? I wouldn’t read anything into her and Dawn.
I think it’s foreshadowing… perhaps a drug problem in Sally’s future?
Roger already knows, she told him when she was “late”.
Yes but doesn’t he assume she followed through with the “procedure”, and didn’t he offer to pay for it?
Good catch; everyone else has shifted from the heavy drinking but Peggy has just gotten into the swing of it.
Roger wouldn’t buy a bicycle for someone else’s baby.
Why not? He is throwing money around like confetti.
They spent way too long on that moment for it not to come up at some point.
Well, he did date that meshugganah Rachel Menken…
In order to assume that, he’d have to be even worse at math than Greg is.
Remember when Joan came to the office? “There’s my baby. Now get the rugrat out of the way so I can see her.”
And then somehow had a baby anyway?
I can’t believe what I’m reading. There is absolutely no question that that scene was meant to be what we would now consider rape. (Whether Joan would have actually used the word “rape” to describe it is irrelevant. She clearly feels about it the same way that she would regardless of the terminology.)
You don’t think that women who get raped sometimes don’t call out or fight back? Like, maybe when they’re being raped by their fiances, whom they thought they trusted? Like, maybe when they’re at their workplaces, and would rather not let people know what’s going on? Like, maybe when they are so stunned by what’s happening that they are too disoriented to fight back?
All this is really irrelevant to the question of whether that incident constituted non-consensual sex.
No, I’m not.
There has not been one other incident in this show that is so clearly non-consensual rape by force. There is absolutely no ambiguity with regard to this incident.
You can’t tell whether something is rape based on the reaction. Different people react in different ways to things.
“Capitalizing”? Again, you have got to be kidding. That incident was clearly mutually consensual. Honestly, your misreading of these situations make you sound like a space alien.
The lack of clear black and white hats is a different issue. We’ve seen that Greg might have his good qualities. That has nothing to do with your finding ambiguities in the two sex scenes. There is no ambiguity. The Joan-Greg scene in the office was unambiguously nonconsensual rape by force and the Joan-Roger scene in the alley was unambiguously consensual sex.
Ascenray, if you’d read the rest of my post, you’d have noticed that I said that she wouldn’t have considered it “rape” specifically because what happened was not generally covered, even in the vernacular, by the definition of “rape”* in 1965*. The word would simply not have occurred to her. It was downright unavailable to her.
I was emphatically NOT arguing that he didn’t rape her.
It’s arguable, I think this is probably an overstatement of the situation in 1965. Yes, in many jurisdicitons the legal definition of rape didn’t include spousal rape. And possibly this might have been extended in practice to situations in which the two people intended to be married. Many prosecutors might also have refused to prosecute when the two people had been in a sexual relationship. (There were also legal regimes under which a man could not be guilty of rape if the victim were a prostitute or was shown to be otherwise have been unchaste or have engaged in consensual pre- or extra-marital sex, but I don’t know how far back you might have to go for that.)
So, perhaps, the state would not have legally defined that circumstance as rape. (I have some doubts about it, especially since Joan and Greg weren’t married at the time.)
However, that is far, far different from saying that the term “rape” was “downright unavailable” to Joan in that situation. I’d like to see some serious scholarship or evidence before even meeting you halfway on that.
The concept of rape has been around as long as humans have been around, and even if legal sanctions have not been always extended to all the circumstances that are encompassed by our current legal concept of “rape,” people’s attitudes and thoughts are not always strictly defined by legal boundaries.
I think that quite a lot of people in 1965 would have thought of what happened to Joan as rape. And perhaps even in decades before that.
I didn’t quote or comment that part of your post because I had no argument with it.
Spousal rape laws weren’t widely passed until the 80s, and in 2012 people are arguing that what happened to her wasn’t rape, because she didn’t resist enough. I think that in 1967, two years after it happened, people still thought of rape as what happens when Richard Speck busts into your house, not what happens when your husband (to be) fails to give a shit that you’re unenthusiastic.
I vote rape.
Regarding the rest of the episode, I thought it was one of the darkest of the series. Very unusual, very foreboding, and very out of the ordinary. It’s definitely stuck with me since sunday.
Also, the scene in which Sally was watching the Mystery Date TV commercial while the grandmother is talking on the phone about the murders was macabe, who will be behind the door?
I never said that I don’t think that women who get raped sometimes don’t call out or fight back. I completely agree that a woman can be scared, stunned, or disoriented and be unable to call out or fight back. What I don’t necessarily think or believe is that Joan was in that situation. I especially don’t believe it when she went ahead and married the guy.
Joan has been shown to be highly intelligent and very much a schemer. I think that if she had been horrifically upset by what happened in that office, she would have found a way to avoid marrying Greg. She wasn’t happy with what happened, but c’mon, she showed more emotion when dealing with the off-color drawings that the one guy did in Season 4 than she’s shown over the rape. If they wanted us to believe that she unambiguously believed he raped her, they needed to show us that she was going through more pain, or demonstrated that she was suppressing her feelings, or something. With what was shown on screen, meh. She didn’t like what he did, but she doesn’t have any major short or long term physical, mental, or emotional affects from it either.