Oi… Get one eye appointment, avoid the computer, and come back to the Dope to find this.
Well, I’ve caught up and i’ve been taking some small notes here and there. So expect some posts from me. I’ll start typing up me thoughts!
- I know BlaM’s sorta hit upon the major point (ie: Mafia 2 and the Clusterf*ck), but I mean what I stated- Why do I feel that scum “easily” manipulate Data?
-Because that’s what I did as Scum in Blade Runner Mafia. It’s easy to do. *Pleonast * (the Cop/Vig) bought his own death simply by talking and creating post lists of who he trusted and didn’t trust. All it takes is a smart enough Scum to create the paranoia and the suspicion of trust lists, and once the spark is lighted, any townie that ISN’T trusted- well you find them and you manipulate them next. It’s how to get a group of townies to end up lynching the Cop. It worked in Blade Runner, and I’m smart enough to realize that I’m not the ONLY person out here clever enough to do such things. Data IS useful to the Town, but then It’s ALSO useful for Scum- it’s just the scum need time to manipulate it. But its easy to do (AND quite fun) because the key is simply to find the weakest links in the trust link or the path and prod those players into wondering WHY they aren’t trusted or they’re distrusted. That leads to Townies railing against other Townies, and then you as scum just have to sit back and enjoy it while you look for the next data point to fudge with. Hell, it’s one reason when I’m scum I pay attention to every player that mentions when he’s got free time, when he’s got vacations, and when he’s been collecting Data- when I hear that, I start to read back through the data- if its worthless, I keep them around.
If it’s something that’s nothing, but its got weak townies (ie: Manipulatable players on it) i keep them around to manipulate.
If they’ve got one or two scum nailed- and I know they’re gonna be making more lists the NEXT Day, well then that’s the person I kill at night- squash all Data, and I want to be the one controlling the Data flow when I’m scum. AKA: I want as much misinformation out there, and I want the smarter data squashed before it gets noticed either by defrauding the players or by silencing them permanently.
It’s what We did in Blade Runner, and Its what i tried to do when I took out Tomba and his silly formulas in SimpleTown.
-That’s why I think it’s scummy. Because the way I find scum is I basically ask myself- What would I do if I were scum. And that’s at the TOP of the list: Manipulate Data.
-
As for your point on “Forcing them to take a stance” - sure, but you also will have to force Townies to take a stance on things too. And thats where you start if you’re scum. You know who’s stances are wrong/right. And those are the people you PRESS then, and that’s the best way to try to mislynch 2 townies back to back. Pin the blame on someone with a ‘stance’ force him to justify it, and then lynch him when it comes back wrong.
-
It just sounds nice though your stance. That’s one reason I distrust it. OF course saying that more information SOUNDS good on paper, when when thought through, it’s not always the best course of action. It all leads to manipulation, at least in my book it does. So sorry, if I don’t take the same “pro-townie” advice of yours to heart. But I believe that People are bastard coated Bastards, and you can’t always trust what they say as townie or scummy right away.
This worries me. Because I didn’t realize that we STILL have to keep playing until all the Vampires are dead too- though it DOES mean we have to just kill off Dracula, but still. An endgame with Dracula alive, and a bunch of mini-Draculas pulling a “I’m Sparticus!” does NOT appeal to me.
I’m in favor of this plan thusly. It’s sorta similar to my BIFOM and earlier plan, but yours, BLaM, is phrased out better, and I thought more cohesive as its geared more towards the Werewolves in language as well. So yeah. I think Dr. Acula is a problem, however, to address CiaS early question of who do we nail first?
We kill the WOLF. Then we deal with the Vampire. It’s been done to death on reasoning, but it should stand. A Wolf may have additional powers that hinder our ability as town to stop the group. The Vampire might too- but they’re not a SERIOUS threat unless we start having some traitorous townies running amidst us or it starts to get down to Endgame. Until the final few Days, i’ll always take the Wolf over the Bat.
Yeah- this is just like a Cop yelling that they’ve found a wolf (don’t worry, I’ll get to you **Story **;)). It’s easy to solve. We lynch the Dracula. If he’s not Dracula, we kill the Liar.
Plain and simple.
Lynch all Liars will solve that lovely problem of Dracula denying it.
Why don’t we examine what he said, shall we?
He specifically makes a point of twisting my words to make it sound like I was saying I think his claim is scummy but unvoted him anyway. What I said was that it’s exactly what a scummy storyteller would make AND tha the risk was too high to keep a vote there. He addresses that I didn’t necessarily believe his claim, but fails to address the actual reason why I unvoted him which was the risk. This is where the motivational transference comes in.
You may or may not like my terminology, but this is not even a remotely useful argument at all. Do you not agree that that it is a scummy tactic to try to make someone a scape goat for your own actions? Do you disagree with my logic that that is the tactic he is what he’s employing here?
He made a point of saying he didn’t buy storyteller’s claim. He then unvoted him saying we’d gain information. I pointed out that his hyper aggressiveness in that regard was suspicious. I made it clear that I didn’t necessarily buy his claim because it’s indifferentiable from what a scummy storyteller would make. I also made it clear that my reason for unvoting him was that the risk if he was telling the truth was too great. He FOSed me for finding his aggression scummy; I’m far from alone in that. He also specifically pointed out that I didn’t buy his point either and FOSed. IOW, he FOSed me for unvoting storyteller while not necessarily believing his claim which means he isn’t motivated by the same logic that I am. Therefore, he didn’t unvote storyteller because of risk. Thus, he didn’t believe his claim, nor did he find it too risky to test, therefore his information explanation makes no sense.
Further, I believe the FOS of me for his unvote is an attempt to shrug blame on me (motivational transference, making it look like my motivation is what his motivation was) so that if/when storyteller is either lynched or dies and people go back and look, they’d be more likely to remember me for that particular act than him and associate that motivation with my unvote rather than with his. Otherwise, it makes no sense to FOS someone for doing the same thing you just did because if you’re town, your motivation is pro-town and thus it doesn’t make sense to assume their motivation is necessarily more scummy than your own.
'tis the perfect example of a perfect knowledge type of post.
'nuff said!
Care to ellaborate? It may be a perfect example, but it’s not patently obvious.
Dude: Now you’re (implicitly) defending OAOW??? I find that very interesting.
Perfect knowledge abounding?
Glad to oblige.
Perfect knowledge is, at first, a huge bonus for scum. Once it’s spotted, it is a huge pitfall for scum.
If not spotted it helps them speak up for the “oppressed”, they might defend someone who is (de facto) wrongly accused and, a posteriori might point to it like it had been a heroic deed.
Once it’s pointed out, however, scum have a problem: How should they behave when there’s a bandwagon forming against an innocent townie? My theory is that, right now, scum will tend to seek the middle ground, neither attacking nor defending townies who are about to be lynched. Always trying to keep the bandwagon rolling, not jumping on it too early yet encouraging it with slightly aggressive posts. Remember: Around Day 5 most actual posts of earlier Days will be overlooked, most votes of earlier Days will be held under the microscope.
Why do I feel sachertorte’s post fits the bill? Let’s take a look:
Paraphrased: well, on the one side I don’t think storyteller is scummy… but maybe he is?
Paraphrased: Story’s story might be likely… but then again it might not be?
Paraphrased: Well, I sure won’t be pointing my finger at him. But, who knows?
In conclusion: it’s a post which, frankly, seeks out the middle ground, neither defending too strenuously nor attacking directly.
He doesn’t vote against storyteller (no record left against him).
And he’s someone who seems eager to defend people under attack (Fretful, OAOW). Why? How does he know they are worth defending?
On Storytelling Part One
- Did anyone foresee the stalling as ACTUALLY going to work? At least he put a timeline up, that was nice.
- “The Slip” - I didn’t see it when I was reading. The whole 3 thing when it was pointed out by someone else struck me as odd- because my first thoughts were: You didn’t factor in a Vig or anyone else to do the work FOR us? Really? THAT’s what was more surprising than the number of Wolves. And then the “3-5” reply correction was sorta meh- i personally don’t think there’s 5 wolves- not unless there’s more than 20 players. Which… i dont think there are. So the 3-5 felt sorta like covering all the bases. Which is the sorta stuff I expect from you Story- you’re a guy that covers the bases. I could easily believe your correction was a plausible mistake. However, I know what i’d have done if I was here. I would have asked you to reveal then once you insinuated you’ve got a Power Role. But I didn’t get the initial Scummy Vibe from the slip itself. I thought it was odd, but nothing.
But when you posted you’ve got a magic bag- that’s what Made ME curious.
And then you posted your Role: Constable.
–It’s a SAFE claim. With you Story I could see it going as a Town Move (you are the cop obviously and its true) OR it’s totally a Scum Move I’d see you make (Especially since we had that nice bit of “What if there are TWO Cop” WIFOM presented to us earlier in the Day - I wonder who brought that bit up. Lemme go check). Ah, delightful Post #175: On Complexity: talking with me
This… is most interesting. And it’s WIFOM. You did mention 2 Cops. You were the first, though you did put Sach’s name there as giving you the suggestion (i think in an out of game thread for a previous game or something, but if its from here, please point it out, but I think it’s from before this game).
- You bring up the Two Cops issue. Now, would you do this as Scum to help ease into a scummy claim in the future by any members? It’s plausible and the thought crossed my mind. It’s a NICE coincidence though.
-And I’ll give it as a point in your favor. If you were anyone else. :grins: It sucks doesn’t it? I totally feel you on the “this is how roosh must feel” though I admit, I felt you had it easier. But yeah, at that point in the game, you didn’t KNOW you were going to claim, the game had barely started but you brought up the issue.
So the WIFOM: Did you do it as scum, setting someone up so that the Cop wouldn’t counterclaim him right away? Or did you do it as a paranoid Cop thinking there might be another one out there?
–I see you **story **of being capable of BOTH of those thoughts. So I will err on the side of Safety, and I’ll point out that If we DO have two cops, I did expound on the ideas of it: Roosh’s Post On Cops
So yeah… if you’re scum- you’re trapped Scum, Story. If you dont’ start producing data at some point, you’ll end up being lynched. If you’re not the only cop out here, or you’re a liar- I expect the OTHER cop to check you out, and if we don’t have anyone screaming for your head tomorrow with a counter or anything else like that, I think you might get to live. However, this alchemist issue never crossed my mind really- but you did bring it up. If you do end up “Blocked” tomorrow, well… that’s not good. And I’m sure you’ll realize that just as much as we all do. Too many Blocks, and we’re going to have to start to wonder… Though if you’re lying at least about the blocks, hopefully the REAL Cop will have investigated you by then, and we’ll know what’s going on. However, I’m certainly of the mind that you’re NOT the play for toDay. Good job!
But then we have the messy business of the discussion AFTER your Cop posting.
Though I do have One Question for you Story:
In Post 333: You bemoan the fact that you can be vamped.
What’s the big deal with that?
You get bitten, you sell the bugger out, you go back to being back on our side(right?). Why the distress?
Vampire Problem solved, and we may just trust you a wee bit more. Unless you’re a scout Wolf. In which case again as mentioned, our OWN Copper should wait and see what you’ve got to say at the start of Day 2, and hear you out first before deciding what’s in the Town’s best interests of counterclaiming you right away (if he knows you’re scum), or if he doesn’t, just to monitor you and see what happens…
*
And NOW I’ll get to writing Part Two, which I had actually made before Part one, but realized it was less on Storyteller, and more on what I’d been thinking as I read on the Day.*
Well this ks certainnly shaping up as a good day one, lots pf discussion with people on both sides. Thing is, I actually don’t mind being the lynch for today. When you all know my alignment for sure take a long hard look at these players
OAOW: Fretful Porpentine, Blaster Master, storyteller, Freudian Slit
I think there are probably at least 2 scum in that list of 4, my picks would be story and Freudian. This wagon on me is total crap.
1 I jump on story for a dlip where he seems to know exactly how many scum there are
2 I then press him for his I have to claim, but I’ll do it later post
he then claims arguably the most important tiwn roke, but immediately begins laying the groundwork for why he won’t have anyhting to tell us tomorrow
3 I call him on this
4 I say a counter claim would be bad - and OF COURSE IT WOULD BE. If story is the constable, it’s a bad thing that he is out, if he is lying, the last thing we want is to out the real constable, he should keep his head down until he has some inv results to state,
5 I only unvote story when he states a reasonable proposal for keeping him around, and I state my reasoning for this at the time.
So, what’s the case on me again? Was I scummy for 1,2,3,4 or 5? or is it 2 + 3 or something?
RE: On The Fine Art of Storytelling: Part Two
I’m sorta irked at you, Story, you sorta stole my thunder. But I suppose that’s what I get for being away all day toDay- I’m denied being able to claim my ideas came first (as they came while I was reading the thread and beFORE Story did his business at all. But all you’ve got for that is my Word. So we’ll move on).
My notes BEFORE you claimed weren’t much- but I was taking them.
And Post #282 pinged me (since I was still in Vampire Hunting mode).
I disliked the idea of killing the wolf first over the Vamp. It’s not a popular idea, but I had it down, and I noted it when I first saw it. As it just seemed… too simple. He doesn’t consider the idea of Wolves with abilities, and it just pinged me a little. Not much but a ping.
But we continue on and I had another note.
Post 330:
-This was an UNNECESSARY post. Honestly, **Story ** SAID just two posts above that he’d claim before 5pm. It was almost 2pm when he said that, and it’s not a “magic bag” if the WAIT period is only 3 hours. So I was asking- what’s the point of Wander’s post there then? All you’re doing is kicking a downed man, and just spreading dirt on a dude who could be Townie or Scum. Why kick the dirt on his grave for something as little as 3 hours? To me, it felt like you were already trying to set us up for disbeliving the claim- and hoping that Story wouldn’t one up you by quick posting as he’d do in 333.
But that Post 330 struck me as INCREDIBLY Scummy- because what’s the townie motivation for hurrying up a post by 3 hours? A scum isn’t going to “speed up” his post just for you really, unless its a set up (Yes, story, i’m not giving you a free pass- you scummy bastards!). But again, that post was just crap- it was just goading a person to post, and it’s fine when it’s down to try to provoke Scum (As molefan did to Darth in Batman- but that post of his took HOURS to make), the post you made looked sloppy and didn’t look like it took a lot of thought. It read to me as just kicking dirt on an already condemned man’s grave.
Most Uncool, Wanders, Most Uncool.
—Hmm… I’ve gone off track on this post (it was supposed to talk about Story, but I haven’t. So lemme go make a post on **Story **FIRST, then post this one—
Back I’ve noted there’s been some posts after my 2nd big post. But I want to finish up these thoughts before I read them. So consider this as up to date as up to my Post on Vampires and knowing what i’ve said in the Story post from here on out.
Anyways, back to **Wanders**.
**Post 333:** This is a post that surprised me. I didn't expect it of Story- him role claiming early. It was QUICK (made like less than 15 mins after **Wander**'s provoked him), but it was sorta a meh post. There's no content in it. And I had to wonder if story is just cracking under the strain or if this is a ploy- because I myself know how it sucks to be prodded by the citizens when you're a power role and forced to role claim.... So i know it could happen to anyone. AND the post was quick and to the point- so its not like Wanders may have been hoping to smudge up story while he didn't post- the fact that story posted so early IS a point in his favor of things.
However, my worry: COULD **Story **AND **Wanders **have cooked this up? (Yes, this is because you're you **Story**- and Bussing a scum to get Townie cred is 100% YOUR FAMOUS M.O. from M2). If it is, well there is a safe way to deal with this: I have two suspicious players- one claims cop, the other perhaps being scummy to begin with, but with the added fear that the Scum may be bussing him to get credibility for the cop role)- simple solution- We lynch the Non-Cop and see what he is. If he's scum, that's a point for Story, but i won't trust him just yet. If we get 2-3 DAYS of no one else counterclaiming Story as him being Scum (not just counterclaiming him as a Cop- there is a difference between "Hey! I'm a Cop! and "Hey, I'm a Cop and I got a SCUM result for him!" sorta deal).
So again, I'm paranoid, but I wanna take the safe route- which is keep an eye on **story**, but trust him a bit more than **Wanders **right now.
Then came **Post 337:**
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers]
genius! I claim a powerful town role, but at the same time, don't expect me to have anything to tell you tomorrow, becayse the scum will block me.
Not really moving me to unvote I must say.
[/QUOTE]
AGAIN with the smudging. So you don't believe him- I get it, but really? Why the confidence in being against taking precautions or erring on the safe side? It's what puzzled me. As sure there's aggression as a Townie, and then there's just outright disbelief and having tunnel vision.
BUT then in **Post [349](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9821125&postcount=349) **: You go an UNVOTE **Story**. He didn't really ADD anything in his "clarification" post. He still pointed but he could be blocked by scum. He just sorta gave his consent that he understood it if the Town lynched him toMorrow anyways. THAT'S ALL it took to move you to unvote? It just... smells like backpedaling to me.
especially your suggestion of: "*he is a cop and gets no inv, we lynch him and know for sure there is a RB"*
-THERE ARE Better ways than just blinding lynching him toMorrow no matter what! Just go and read up on the earlier posts on what to do with Two Cops, or if we have a Cop vs. Cop WIFOM! I really didn't like your Vamp vs. Wolf voting idea, and I don't really like your setting yourself on a track that could lead to a real cop dying just because its the right thing to do. Yes, we need more information, but that doesn't just mean we should go out and kill **Story **Day 2.
**
In Summary:**
It's for those posts 282. 330. 337. 349:
Those posts are the big ones that I REALLY didn't like.
That plus the fact that my previous suspect (who I still am suspicious of, but dont' think he's the scummiest of the Day toDay) is asking to hear from you more, just makes me feel right about this:
**Unvote Sach
Vote One And Only Wanders**
**
Extra Thoughts on Story:**
What FEEDS this fear of you bussing **Wanders **is then this post: [343](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9821038&postcount=343)
by you **Story**, where you steal my thunder and cast the suspicion for **Wonders**. Here i was following along and being proud that I knew who i was gonna vote for and you advocate looking at him (thus setting off my paranoia on your ScumBusseryHistory). It just means you're thinking the same things I'm thinking. But I still think there's a chance you could be scum. But you're not the SCUMMIEST for toDay.
As for **Wander**'s** Post [357](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9821270&postcount=357) **: Since it could be applied to me as well, I'll answer it from my point of view:
I think you're scummy for pressing him. I think Story could be scummy with his claim. However, your motives and actions on the WHOLE for toDay, stand out to me AS MORE scummy and suspicious. I will however see how he does with his Claim, you on the other hand, I feel are more suspicious toDay with your other actions and posts moreso than Him.Hey, everyone, I’m town. That means those voting against me HAVE to be scum. :rolleyes:
Seriously, you completely failed to mention my case against you. I thought you were suspicious because you were excessively aggressive, but that is not necessarily a scumtell. What made me suspicious of you is the lack of motivaiton.
You made it clear you didn’t believe him. Then you said you unvoted him because we’d gain information. You FOS me for unvoting him because I think it’s too risky. So, I have to ask, if you think he’s lying and you don’t think it’s much of a risk to kill him, why unvote him for information? Wouldn’t we truly gain the most information about him by, say, lynching him?
I’m not sure what that is, but if you’re talking about NAF’s ideas of looking at motivations for Players Actions vs. just what they did, then sign me up as a believer.
I hated that shit when I was scum, and it made my life hell to deal with Him.
Easier just to kill off **NAF **in Blade Runner than deal with that junk. But its started to gain a following, and it’s TOUGH to deal with with- **BLaM **used it quite well vs. me in the Simpletown Game (well vs. Zuma, but still). Finding a way around it as scum- well i’m not looking forwards to that task ever again- as its easy to manipulate data and stuff, but getting around Motivation? That’s a bitch.
But i def. wanna learn more and try to apply it more and more- NAF’s stuff is surprisingly useful and it adds a good layer of thought to things. If that’s what you’re referring to, then yeah, I’m a believer.
firstly, I didn’t FOS you for unvoting him. If there had been just the 2 paragraphs of text with noi vote in that post you would have still got an FOS. I FOS’d you for playing both sides. You condemn me for pushing story teller, but at the same tiem say you see how his claim is scummy. That’s what got the FOS.
And I GAVE my reasons for unvoting him. There is a non zero chance he is telling the truth. There is also a non zero chance that there is no alchemist, so eaiting until tomorrow seems the optimal thing to do regarding story. Do I still think he is scum? Yes. Am i 100% sure? No
I’d call it a WIFOM post, but yeah I hated that post!
**Sach **is also the one calling to wait and hear **Wanders **defense posts I noted but I figured i’d leave it out of my massive info dump (i just allude to it within my summary that I unvoted Sach)
Maybe it’s just me, but I HATE defender players. Its so hard for me to get a read on them.
Players that go out of their way to defend everyone but not really attack anyone- however, i can’t tell if its scummy or not (as **Atarus/Pollux Oil **is a player like this who FRUSTRATES me constantly by defending EVERYONE at the start of Days). However, I know that’s his playstyle and I’m used to it.
Sach- I dunno. I guess I’m just used to him as the forensic guy and the evil plotter in YSI.
On Scrolling:
-Ah, I see you elaborated on this- Cool Beans.
Ouch. What unfortunate timing, I just noticed that My post follows that line. 
Though I do like your suspicions list- care to elaborate on the others?
(besides **Storyteller **who i’m suspicious of already)
How am I playing both sides? I said it’s exactly the claim I’d expect from a scummy storyteller, IOW, there’s no way to tell if it’s a truthful claim or not because hey, if he’s telling the truth, that’s what he’d say, and if he’s caught scum that’s what he’d say. That’s not playing both sides at all, that’s making a simple observeration about the nature of the claim. I, in fact, at the time of your FOS had made no claim about how much I did or did not believe his claim, as that is subjective and, frankly, irrelevant. I HAD made an observation about the risk which you failed to address then and continue to fail to address.
None of this was new information between when you claimed you didn’t believe him with the whole “look he’s given us a reason why he won’t give us a result tomorrow” and the post that supposedly got you to change your mind. RoOsh hit on this point well. What about that post changed your mind?
Thank you, I appreciate the ellaboration. I had been feeling a bit uneasy about sachetorte, but I was unable to substantiate it, but this could be why. I’ll keep him on my list of people to watch very carefully.
FLUFF:
Someone reads my posts! I feel validated!
I’m sorry for my schedule, but right now its basically I’m free from like 11pm-3am Weekdays EST. It sucks. I normally try to check in the evenings and afternoons, but today and other upcoming days just have a very… night heavy rotation for me currently.
Sorry for the post slurry. But hey, I came back to 2 pages of posts- so this is the least I could do to make up for it!
The key part was, if we lynch him today, and he comes up cop, we have gained nothing. If we postpone the lynch till tomorrow, and he is telling the truth, we get an investigation result, or find out that there is definitely a scum RB. Hence waiting until tomorrow seems the logical thing to do.