You took exception to my removing my random vote? Really?
Seriously, at this point you may as well let this lynch go through. I am only a vanilla, so no great loss to town. Make sure story is pressed tomorrow, and look at the reasons of everyone voting me. Very few of the votes on me have a reasonable case behind them. I mean Koldanar just voted me and cited my removal of my random vote! That’s a new one on me. And as for jumping on story immediately, well yeah, I like to pressure people when they make a huge slip like perfect knowledge of scum numbers. Koldanar just ,ade my potential scum list.
It’s not your random vote removal, but rather your “yea, me too” and voting how Cat voted. You have had 2 posts where you voted, and rather than spelled things out, jumped immediately on a person. Once was the Me, Too, and once was story’s ‘slip’.
why is ‘slip’ in quotes? If story rreally is the cop, the only way you could be sure of this is by being scum, as you would then know he is town, and town don’t lie. Everyone else, whether they believe him or not has at least acknowledged it was in fact a slip. But to you it is a ‘slip’
You can’t really find it suspicious that I didn’t have an opinion about Fretful Porpentine on Monday. This sounds like feigned suspicion to me.
Both of you guys are pinging me. Of course, Blaster Master is pinging me most of all, but the problem is he always seems suspicious to me, no matter what side he’s on. I’ll hold off on him for a while. If he keeps insisting against reason that OAOW FOSed him for unvoting story, I may change my mind.
We can’t be 100% sure, EVER. This is a game about suspicion; I am accounting for that small chance it was orchestrated (though knowing story that is admittedly a bizzare situation). However it stands, I’m very happy with my vote for you.
This made me think of post 336, in which ShadowFacts similarly slipped a vague aspersion against me into the end of his post. I’m not sure if it’s just me being paranoid, but it’s starting to look like you, Shadow, and Darth are quietly stockpiling ammunition against me.
Although on review, I realize that it was Darth Sensitive who challenged me initially, and openly, so at least he’s not being sneaky about it. If I FOS him I’ve got to FOS you two as well, I suppose.
The hell? I made a nice, long, substantive post (with a vote) yesterday, but it would seem that it became hamster chow without my realizing it. Crap.
Well, the short version of it was my suspicion that OAOW played storyteller to the hilt, his actions simply reeked of a scum ploy to me, and it ended with:
Vote OAOW
Now that I’ve got that back on the record, I’m going to catch up on what’s happened since then. Updates/revisions to follow.
Clean Nosers; lacking in controversy or lurking (not a good thing)
Koldanar
Hal Briston - Lurker
Nanook of the Northshore
Pollux Oil
Darth Sensitive
Freudian Slit
Hockey Monkey - Lurker
Claimed
Storyteller - I feel the burden of proof of his roleclaim is on him.
Leaning Town
Fretful Porpentine - “No Scout” comment strikes me as a town statement. I am troubled by her complacency regarding storyteller, but her response {storyteller attacking her seems like town} is reasonable. The main problem I have is whether or not I believe she is being genuine in being above storyteller’s attacks. Typical Town behavior is to react poorly to attacks from unknowns.
OneAndOnlyWanderers - His reactions to storyteller were similar to my own. I don’t find his actions scummy.
WFTomba - Strong disagreement with my free information stance strikes me as Town disagreement. i.e. I would have expected scum to be less disagreeable.
Don’t know
Diggit Camera - Wrong assessments of my posts make me distrustful; but hasn’t done anything of note.
Roosh - long posts make me numb. Also suspicious of me. Has bizarre expectations of my playstyle.
BlaM! - Established good presence. Posts are mostly informative and responsive to queries and elaboration.
ShadowFacts - Got heat for voting Hockey Monkey while skipping Blaster Master. I don’t see any scum motivation for skipping Blaster Master. I’m mostly confused by the whole thing.
CatInASuit - Main heat giver to ShadowFacts. Other than that, my impression is CatInASuit has been sticking to game mechanics discussion. Lynch Wolf/Dracula, roleclaims, game setup.
Me
sachertorte
I’m against the OAOW lynch, but it seems I won’t be able to stop it. Also at this early point of the game I can’t offer a better candidate (well I can, but no one is going to bite). I ask everyone voting for OAOW to stop and re-read the events of yesterday and consider OAOW’s actions from the perspective of a Townie. Do his actions make sense? I think they do.
I’m keen on lynching a clean noser, but not necessarily a lurker. My motivation lies in the “let Town attack itself” line of scum play. Who is participating enough to not get noticed for not participating, but not really contributing or putting themselves at risk. The danger of course is powerroles have motivation to be clean as well.
More to come…
See this is precisely my problem. When have scum employed tactics that REEKED? They don’t. Scum act subtly. Why does everyone think that a scummy OAOW would have played storyteller at all? storyteller’s roleclaim was imminent. Scum would more likely sit back and watch storyteller claim. Why would scum push to have that claim sooner? What does this gain scum?
Remember the Day ends tomorrow 4pm EDT (hope I got the time right) 1PM my time. Later for folks in England, earlier for folks in Hawaii, for you folks in the fly-over states it is sometime in between and if any of you live in Australia…good luck to you.
25 hours and 10 minutes till lynch time, give or take a minute.
Good luck, stay safe, don’t wander about at Night.
I didn’t say he was vanilla, in fact I specifically stated that he wasn’t. But no one backed off from voting for him based on his role claim, which was my point. They backed off because he presented a reasonable defense, which is what a vanilla town would do.
Here though you make a good point. I guess I did fall into the trap of considering the past too much when making my argument. Obviously, it’s not possible to really say what might have happened in past games if the scum had claimed. It might have saved them and it might not have. I can’t really say what reason scum would have for not doing something, since I’ve never played scum so I don’t have experience with their mindset. One thing I learned in Simpletown was that you can read and follow along with these games all you want, but there’s a world of difference between knowing how the game goes, and actually BEING in the game and experiencing it as it happens.
One reason I could think of to avoid false claiming though is that it is at best a delaying tactic. This is fine later in the game where a delay of even one Day can mean the difference between winning and losing, but not all that great early. On the other hand, a more classical defense, where you answer the points raised against you and make a good case for yourself will most likely keep you alive much longer. The downside of course is this is very difficult to pull off, at least if the case against you is solid.
On preview, I see you have listed me as a clean noser. I’m not sure what to make of that. I don’t see myself as lurking at all really, so I guess you don’t see me as involved in controversy. Which is weird since we’ve been having this back and forth, and I had a few similar ones earlier with CIAS and others. Then again, the same thing happened in Simpletown. Maybe my posts are just invisible to others
Delaying is good for scum! For all we know storyteller is the scout, and each lynch he avoids is another night he can use his power.
You might be right that I’m just not picking up on you. I need to do a re-read, but I need to do some work first. I’m not going to vote for OAOW, so my vote won’t affect anything. I’ll still try and figure out the best place to put it though.
Yes, and this was just as true when he claimed and you said you weren’t inclined to unvote him as it was after the next post of his when you finally did unvote him. I want to know what changed your mind.
I agree with this, too. I mean, the sooner he does, we’re that much closer to winning. Because if we do kill all wolves, and Dracula’s alive, then that’s all he needs to win. Sure, we could let him maybe try to bite a wolf and die, but who wants to take that chance?
No, he also needs Vampires to outnumber Town. If we kill all Wolves and Dracula’s alive but alone, no one will have won yet and Dracula’s chances will depend on how many Town players are left.
Blaster Master, I think you are assuming that he thought through all possible ramifications of storyteller’s roleclaim. Furthermore you are requiring that OAOW see all the possibilities of storyteller’s claim, which I don’t see as fair.
storyteller roleclaims at 2:23PM EDT
OAOW’s first reaction is at 2:32PM EDT: OAOW reacted to storyteller’s pointing out of the scum roleblocker first. He didn’t think about information possibilities. I think that is reasonable.
storyteller mentions the idea of information gain at 2:57PM EDT.
OAOW unvotes at 3:07PM EDT.
So yes, while it is true that information gain was always a possibility, I don’t think it is fair to say that OAOW is required to have thought of it immediately after storyteller roleclaimed. Once the notion of information gain was put on the table, OAOW unvoted.
Lynching lurkers is still potentially valid; I have used it more than once in the past as part of a case against scum. A lurker isn’t necessarily someone who doesn’t post, it’s someone who doesn’t post a lot. Making four substantive posts is very easy, and it’s quite simple for someone to meet that threshold, maybe even post a few more, make them innocent and read well, and not post much else so that they stay in the game but stay below the radar.
Further, lurking is relative. Let’s say we have a normal sort of game, with the top posters doing about 40 posts or so a day, the rest of the people around 20-25, and the low posters in the teens. A lurker would be someone with probably less than 10 posts. OTOH, if we have a very active Day and the top posters do 80-100, the average is around 60-70, then lurking could potentially be as high as about 30-40
Bottom line, the only thing the 4 post rule does is auto-prune players who stop playing, it doesn’t force people to not lurk.
This is complete hogwash. The point is that I believe your behavior is consistent with a wolf. Thus, you’re interested in getting us to lynch anyone who isn’t a wolf, so town, great for you. However, because you all don’t know who Dracula is, if storyteller were lynched and showed up Dracula, it doesn’t reflect any better on you than if he showed up town.
Storyteller coming up as town (which means he’d telling the truth about being a detective) or showing up as Dracula is consistent with you being a wolf, believing he has a power role, and pressuring him for a claim.
Further, how does this make me look like Dracula? Just an ill-advised smudge or a hint at secret knowledge that I’m not a wolf?
Again, a misrepresentation of the events. I won’t bother to say why again because I’ve already stated it at least three or four times.
Yes, I may be a little pale, it is only spring, but I assure you I don’t have pointy teeth.
Again, I’m failing to see your case against me as anything more than OMGUS at best. What makes you think I’m Dracula and not a wolf? you specifically say “Yeah, I think [storyteller is] scum” but you make a point of saying I’m Dracula. Suspicion of me, fine, whatever, but this distinction is suspect based on the evidence presented.
sachetorte, again with the strange defenses. Timing, IMO, is moot. This is a game of veterans, so I think it’s only fair to expect some basic pieces of game logic to be standard. One of those pieces is to unvote certain claims (like doctor, detective, and mason) unless there’s good reason to do so. Not buying the claim is not good reason to do so.
I find the motivation that he was pressuring him, probably expecting a different claim, was caught off-guard, and made a mistake, and took the first opportunity he could to correct it, far more likely. I think the off-guard aspect is fairly reasonable because storyteller’s “I have a claimable role” made it seem like he was probably going to claim mason rather than detective.
Lynching Dracula isn’t necessarily a waste, but it is sub-optimal. We have 17 players, so we if assume 4 wolves and Dracula, that’s 12-4-1.
A lynch Dracula essentially gives the scum a free Night, that would leave a ratio of 11-4 (3 mislynches to get to 5-4, it takes 2 Doc protects to make it 4 mislynches). OTOH, if he kills himself, it makes it 12-4 (again, 3 mislynches, but it only takes 1 Doc protection to make it 4). The optimal solution is for the Wolves to actually use a Night kill on him making it 4 mislynches even without a Doc protection.
That said, he IS an anti-town and needs to die, but it’s certainly best to try to one of the latter two scenarios to occur if we can.
My issue with OAOW’s pressure is that it went farther than it needed to. I’d already asked storyteller if he was claiming to have a power role after he alluded to it. Beyond that point, there’s not really any reason. If he claims mason, he’s probably telling the truth, if he claims Doc or Detective, he may or may not be telling the truth, but we’re still going to unvote him anyway. The pressure after he said he had a claimable role may or may not have been scummy, but it was certainly anti-town.
You’re missing the crux of my point. If we assume those two points are true, the third point doesn’t make sense. Yes, leaving storyteller alive may gain us some information; however, if he’s lying we gain MORE information by lynching him. Since it’s clear that he thinks he’s lying, and risk was not his motivation then, at best, he’s holding a very illogical opinion that is decidedly lacking in pro-town motivation.
