[QUOTE=sachertorte]
something is not right.
NSF and uscdiver set this game up as veterans only. The setup as they have disclosed so far does not strike me as particularly tricky or complex. Taken at face value the set up is straightforward with a few extra scum powers.
Dracula himself is nothing but a suped up survivor.
I expect something tricky. But I do not know what yet.
[/QUOTE]
That seems about right. I wouldn’t be too surprised if something awful were to–AHH!
No, only joking.
I’m torn…it would make sense that in a game touted as a “veteran’s game”, there would be more here than meets the eye – secret roles, private win conditions and such.
However, I look at the assumptions that were made in the Batman game – that it was going to be a completely Bastard Mod game and that nothing we were told could be trusted – when nothing could be further from the truth.
Man…I hate Day 1 of Mafia games…
Back briefly before heading off to lunch. I figured I’d take this moment to get my conversation starter random vote in.
vote Roosh
Not a bad choice actually. I’m not sure the hamsters could handle an entire game’s worth of rooshian posts.
Oh and just for clarification, I’m assuming that Day 1 will be slightly longer than normal since we started on Thursday night/Friday morning, and will be ending as usual next Thursday.
Is this correct?
[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore}
Is this correct?[/QUOTE]
You know it.
I am also going to try to get Diver to stat the Day’s whenever possible since I am not able to reliably be online on the weekends. I will be around to end the Day’s though, and will probably be pre-writing plug n’ play dawn posts for Diver until he is able to spend more time on the game himself.
Once again, I implore you, send me ideas if you have them.
[QUOTE=Hal Briston]
I’m torn…it would make sense that in a game touted as a “veteran’s game”, there would be more here than meets the eye – secret roles, private win conditions and such.
[/QUOTE]
I think I’ve reached the opposite conclusion.
I mean, look at the Batman game, current world record holder for secret roles, private win conditions, and such. In retrospect, in a certain light, it’s hard to imagine a game more friendly to a new player. Sure, there was a lot of complexity to the game, but it was complexity of a sort that put all players - veterans and non - on a fairly equal footing. Whatever “experience” players had was at best irrelevant to what Roosh and Dio were dishing up in that game.
Meanwhile, since everyone had a role, inexperienced players had something upon which to build. They all had powers, private information, a way to gain context on the game. And the interaction of all those powers sort of drove the game forward on its own.
Now look at You-Solve-It, which had no power roles. The only way to be successful in that game was through behavior analysis, studying posts for inconsistencies, misrepresentations, manipulations. Long experience is not particularly valuable in puzzling out complex and unique set-ups, because they are by their nature unlike what has come before. However, experience does become valuable in post analysis.
So I’d conclude that this game is more likely than not to be pretty straightforward: a veteran game where there aren’t a lot of crutches or hints. Which is pretty cool.
And regarding Dracula: I’m really confused by the prevailing sentiment that his Vamps would be likely to sell him out. Why would we expect this to happen?
Woo! Game started, alright!
So am I the only person that keeps thinking “Castlevania” instead of “Cecilvania”? Maybe there’s a secret Simon Belmont role. 
Anyone? Anyone? Too geeky? Oh okay… 
When I initially saw the set-up and roles, my first thought was “this seems too simple.” I was expecting something a bit more complicated for veterans only. I think I’m going to go through the game with a nagging feeling in the back of my head that there’s a Chia Bingo Manager waiting in the wings to scare us. I’m not sure, but I think it’s more likely that there’s going to be extra power roles/a secret role instead of secret win conditions.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
And regarding Dracula: I’m really confused by the prevailing sentiment that his Vamps would be likely to sell him out. Why would we expect this to happen?
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure how it’s prevaling, unless I missed something. I think sach brought it up while we were pre-game discussing the ruleset, and I felt that we should at least minorly bring it up again. If I have the time tonight, I want to think through some scenarioes about this, since I wasn’t sure what they were setting this role up for (usually, aren’t these mad-bomber type roles anonymous to those they bomb?)
yes. I think I’m the one who suggested a vampire might sell out Dracula. My reasoning is a vampire has the town win condition as a backup. Furthermore outing Dracula could confirm a townie. Though now that I type that out I realize that with a scout knowledge of who Dracula is doesn’t confirm a townie.
Anyway my thinking is the potential of townies turned vampire betraying Dracula is a deterrent for Dracula biting. Some players will play along with Dracula others may not. I view it like the bonus nonbeliever win condition. There really isn’t a good reason for nonbeliecers to play for the lone win but some did anyway. Similarly I see some players playing with Dracula. And some against.
the potential of a scout mitigates this bit I think the possibility is there.
I’m another who felt that townies would out Dracula immediately. My initial thought was that there’s no downside for a townie to do so, outside of power roles. There was even an upside in that it can confirm a townie. I did not think about the effect a scum scount would have though. As far as I can remember, none of the games here had a role similar, save Batman which doesn’t really count with all the other insanity it had. Therefore, it’s a difficult role to take into consideration when thinking about game makeup. Thinking about it some more, and reading what others think though, I can see why a vanilla town might not be in a hurry to out Dracula. An extra win condition never hurt right? And they can use it as a way to semi-confirm late game if necessary, assuming the scout, if there is one, is dead. Even if the scount isn’t dead, it’s a small point towards town, though mitigated by the scount possibility.
And regarding Dracula: I’m really confused by the prevailing sentiment that his Vamps would be likely to sell him out. Why would we expect this to happen?
[/QUOTE]
If all the converts die when Dracula dies, then there would be sufficent reason to protect him. The rules state though that any converted vampire revert back to their original condition, so there is no real motivation not to turn him in. Some players may feel it’s more fun to go for an alternate win condition though. Right Hal? 
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
So I’d conclude that this game is more likely than not to be pretty straightforward: a veteran game where there aren’t a lot of crutches or hints. Which is pretty cool. 1
And regarding Dracula: I’m really confused by the prevailing sentiment that his Vamps would be likely to sell him out. Why would we expect this to happen?
[/QUOTE]
Complexity
So my thought was what else could make the game complex?
-Hidden Roles? We haven’t heard any mention of SKs, Vigs, Mad Bombers (Necromancer anyone?) or Chia Bingo Roles. My gut feeling says there’s GOT to be at least one of those in here somewhere. The “not newbie friendly” just screams that to me. But we’d know more about that sort of thing after Day 1, or Night 1 more specifically (ie: Will there be 2 bodies at dawn, someone complaining of a hat, etc…)
-However, I will admit, Story, I never considered it from your angle- to make a Game for “veterans” just a Stripped down version of mafia… Because that seems so… dull? (yeah, I know, you may be excited by the down in the trenches player vs. player analysis, and I don’t mind that sorta thing, but… come on- everyone loves a little insanity). Because how would THIS game differ from the Newbie game then over in Simple town? That’s the key- what’s THIS game offering that the Simple town game isn’t? Right now it just seems to be more Villain power roles vs. the basic townie roles.
-In which case my fear is “What if this is a Veteran’s Game because it’s going to be stacked against the Town?” in which case… Damn? I can’t see how that’d really work. But that’s what we did in Batman- the Town just had its work cut out for them and we didn’t really care so much on the balancing.
*So my view on the Complex thing is gonna be a little from column A and a little from Column B: I expect surprises, and I expect some roles probably not in the initial flavor (However, I will maintain skepticism on said roles- just to make sure scum don’t see this and go “Ah ha! That’s all we need to do to avoid HIS vote! (Remember, I’m a fan of lynching for information)”.
But if this is a “simpler” game as YOU suggest, Story, in which case… great. That prospect does not excite me as much as it may you. But I think it may be both- we may have a simpler setup, but perhaps there are 1 or 2 oddly complex roles out there, and we as a Town will have to deal with these issues. Otherwise, what’s the point of touting this as a “Veteran’s Game” in the face of a “Simple Game”, why not just call it “Back to Basics AGAIN” because that’s what it’d be.
**On Vampires**
2. As for Vampires and Dracula- Hell, the way I see it- Dracula is one sad sad S.O.B. He's a role that basically can't do ANYTHING and is waiting for his inevitable death. Because What's the Pro-Town Motivation to turn him in? Oodles. What's the "Vampire" Motivation of staying alive? Next to jack. You become a crap role trying to play for a ridiculous win, it'd only make sense to join him in maybe the endgame if it looked like the Wolves and the Town were in a dead heat, and you were that bastard sort of player that wouldn't mind trying to screw over the Town to get a "cooler" harder to achieve win.
In my book, it's easier just if you're about to go to the gallows and you're a Vamp- why not just delay your lynch- Turn in Dracula, then at night if the town doesn't trust you perhaps you'll be investigated, and the next day voila! You're back to playing for the Home Team again, possibly with the Cop confirmation (Not that he should speak up about it, but rather perhaps by the "let's not lynch the Vamp traitor today, let's look elsewhere" sorta spiel that should come up. Because yeah, okay, the Scout could do the Vampire thing and turn him in, or I suppose ANY of the scum could if they found him.
But in that case, maybe we can hope for this suggestion: Dracula- if you're fucked and you're going to die... Why not let us know if you bit him? That'd be a nice thing to do for you, and it'd screw over the wolves a bit more if they tried any funny crap.
You don't have to name ALL your victims (because that'd give the wolves info on who ISN'T a power role), but at least you can tell us if your accuser was bitten or not. And if he want's to be a dick and say no, he never bit the guy accusing him. Fine. We lynch Dracula first, and we lynch that guy the next Day. Easy enough, and Dracula can be a petty petty little man in the Spoiler zone.
(*Note, these suggestions are only i suppose really applicable right now, when I assume we outnumber the wolves by a good bit, as the game goes on, these strategies might not be the best to take- i'll be the first to admit that).re: Dracula -
I don’t know that it matters much, and of course it would be ideal if a turned Townie would instantly betray Count Chocula out there, but I really don’t believe that the way it’s being presented is accurate. We need to worry about Dracula, precisely because his victims have options.
Consider: if you become a Vampire, there is no risk to remaining a Vampire. If Dracula dies, you revert to Town. If he lives to the endgame, you win. Essentially, for as long as you are a Vampire, you essentially have two ways to win the game, versus only one as a Townie. The play there is to shoot for a Vampire win for as long as you are able, using the Town win as a fallback. For that reason, Dracula and his minions are going to be a much bigger problem than some of the posts so far have been suggesting.
One possible confounding factor, which will require a question of the Mods:
If Player X is Vamped, and then is lynched or Night killed while Dracula is still alive, and then - after the death of Player X as a Vampire - Dracula is killed, will Player X posthumously revert to the Town win condition or is Player X out of luck?
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
If Player X is Vamped, and then is lynched or Night killed while Dracula is still alive, and then - after the death of Player X as a Vampire - Dracula is killed, will Player X posthumously revert to the Town win condition or is Player X out of luck?
[/QUOTE]
Screw it, if Diver corrects me we will deal with it then.
Player X is out of luck.
[QUOTE=RoOsh]
-However, I will admit, Story, I never considered it from your angle- to make a Game for “veterans” just a Stripped down version of mafia… Because that seems so… dull? (yeah, I know, you may be excited by the down in the trenches player vs. player analysis, and I don’t mind that sorta thing, but… come on- everyone loves a little insanity).
[/quote]
As my comments in the Spoiler Board for your game will probably suggest, I’m much more interested in a trenches-type game than in a kooky anything-can-happen-type game. Although there are all kinds of complexities inherent in this sort of partially-open game; they’re just more amenable to analysis than the complexities of a game like Batman. Folks who’ve played a lot are more likely to be able to manage those complexities.
Well, here’s an easy, if potentially useless if the Mods decline to answer, way of blocking a tactic like that:
Mods, will you state explicitly that the possible roles listed in the opening color are the only possible roles in this game?
Where I diagree with you is in the proposition that the only way to achieve complexity is in the nature of the roles. sachertorte has suggested one relatively minor thing that would dramatically increase complexity while using only basic roles: more than one Cop. Cops are pretty basic roles. But having two, both pro-Town, would sow considerable confusion if one is forced to claim.
Well, if you’re a vampire, you have two ways of winning–if Dracula’s alive, you can win as a vamp, or if he dies, you can win as Town. I’d assume most vampires would hedge their bets and not reveal their vampireness. I’m not sure that’s a “bastard” move, so much as it is just being careful.
[QUOTE=NAF1138]
Screw it, if Diver corrects me we will deal with it then.
Player X is out of luck.
[/QUOTE]
Ah. Then I reverse my previous opinion. Anyone bitten by Dracula will likely sell him out very quickly.
Seriously?
I figure they’d take their vampireness as far as they can, then sell out Dracula if they look to by lynched.
[QUOTE=Darth Sensitive]
Seriously?
I figure they’d take their vampireness as far as they can, then sell out Dracula if they look to by lynched.
[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, getting lynched is not the only way to die in this game. If it was, we’d be in much better shape as a whole. If a player gets Vamped, he or she could be Night killed at any point and lose the game for good. It’s much safer to be in a position where your own death isn’t a guaranteed loss.
Also, an on-the-chopping block claim of “I am a Vampire and so-and-so is Dracula!” would be a great tool for Wolves to get us to burn a mislynch. Accordingly, I’m not sure how much credence we can afford to put into such a claim. Which further increases the risk taken on by a player who is Vamped.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
I think I’ve reached the opposite conclusion.
<snip>
So I’d conclude that this game is more likely than not to be pretty straightforward: a veteran game where there aren’t a lot of crutches or hints. Which is pretty cool.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting take, and you may be right. But while I’d doubt things are going to be too loopy in the setup, I still think things aren’t all exactly as they seem to be.
[QUOTE=Hockey Monkey]
Some players may feel it’s more fun to go for an alternate win condition though. Right Hal?
[/QUOTE]
I refuse to answer on the grounds that I’d likely have to start wearing turtlenecks.