[Mafia game] The Realm of Phere

OK. But let it be it noted that Bob is my preferred Lynchee.

Unvote: BobArrgh
Vote: Suburban Plankton

It’s the many non-participants who will turn toDay’s vote into a frustration. In the (highly unlikely) event I ever direct a game, there will be large penalties for delayed vote-switches and non-participation.

BTW, I’m switching to a more free-flowing intuitive style. One of several reasons I suspect Suburban is that in every prior game where he and I have both been Town he’s been consistently anti-Septimus. That he’s mostly ignoring me in this game makes me think we’re on different teams.

Well, since the vote on **Astral **wasn’t valid, because she hadn’t unvoted MHaye, that meant her vote was still on MHaye. So the “revote” wasn’t necessary at all, because her vote had never changed.

Now, if she didn’t *realize *that her Astral vote had been invalid, then the “revote” would make perfect sense from her. she makes no comment on that, as far as I recall.

But all-in-all, I would rather have heard the explanation first-hand from Weedy, rather than from you.

@ Gadarene – yes, Astral DOES defend himself very strongly when mafia. He was mafia in his very first game here and impressed the hell out of a lot of people.

I would love for Astral to be scum. I voted him yesterDay on the strength of his first post because I thought it was scummy, if you’ll remember. I don’t think he’s scum now. Part of that is his posts, and part of it is how his wagon just exploded yesterday.

What do you think of Suburban?

Really? You think I’m Scum is because I’m “anti-septimus”?

I find it odd that you mention how I’m ignoring you in this game less than an hour after I mention that I am suspicious of you, and shortly after I respond directly to one of your posts.

I tend to mostly ignore people that I do not suspect of being Scum. Up until just recently, I didn’t suspect you in this game.

This is a huge leak in your game.

It could be, yes. And if he’s Scum, it’s undeniably Scummy.

But if he’s Town, then it’s a pro-Town play, because he will be able to level up, and when he’s able to return and play he will be (presumably) more effective.

I don’t have a read on NAF at this point. With a single data point, that’s impossible, in my opinion. Certainly there are a number of other people who I would vote for before NAF at this point in the game, and I think that there should have been a number of people you should have voted for before NAF as well.

The fact that you voted NAF over ‘everyone else’ indicates to me that you’re not terribly interested in who gets lynched Today. I can think of only two reasons for such apathy:

You’re Scum, and you know that all of the vote-leaders aren’t
You’re PFK, so we’re all the same to you

Post 1,000 has been reached. My notes on the posts just read follow.

Continuing from 901.

Just before I broke off, PetW raised his head above the battlements in [post=14958654]post 835[/post]and got shot at, picking up three votes in short order. That first sentence has attracted two of the first three votes; Normal Phase reads it as Mafia gloating, and Astral Rejection thinks it might be PIS, and votes to put pressure on.

I’ve seen Mafia gloating before, from new players even. My first reaction on reading that was it could be a Mafia gloat. It could also be misdirection, suggesting that all three deaths are due to the Mafia when one is from PetW the serial killer.

Normal’s case builds further, with PetW’s plan (impractical for several reasons), and challenging PetW’s vote for Gadarene as Gad is the least likely target for the Mafia Nightkill (they generally don’t kill people with significant levels of suspicion on them, hoping to get them lynched instead – unless they know the player is a cop role, or something else they really need to get rid of.) Against that, if Gad is Mafia aligned, and they successfully saved him Yesterday, that would explain his survival – but it’s not the only reason, or (imo) even likely. Just a hypothesis to bear in mind for now. Normal also notes problems with PetW’s second and third choice cases.

Gad’s vote in 871 follows; he’s largely piggybacking on Normal’s case.

Gnarly’s is a pressure vote because the first sentence might be PIS, ignoring the rest of the post. That’s a slippery reason for a third vote. When I’ve done the reread, Gnarly will be my first candidate for close examination. That’s subject to nothing arising later in the Day. (PetW is second right now.)

Silver Jan followed with a vote in [post=14959868]post 902[/post], primarily because PetW’s plan might result in her having to vote someone she believes Town – a valid objection to the plan, although it smacks of voting someone for A Bad Idea.

A discussion breaks out as to whether trying to eliminate people from your suspicion list is a reasonable strategy – that is, if you form an opinion that a particular player is Town, should you say so? Some people think it’s the best way to proceed, others that it misses the point of the game.

Gad decides to quote the PM from his correspondent regarding the wealth wincon – see [post=14960576]951[/post]. My reaction initial was that this doesn’t help Gad much. Particularly, why, if his correspondent really believes the Town needs to know this, enough to put it in all capitals, didn’t they themselves come out and say it instead of using Gad as a stalking horse? No, either Gad is making it up, or the other guy is using Gad as a stalking horse.

[post=14960942]Post 967[/post] sees fubbleskag vote Gadarene, and offer half-price iunspections to people voting Gadarene. That feels very panicky to me, trying to buy votes. ToeJam votes in [post=14961035post ]977[/post[/post]. Fubbleskag defends himself by suggesting ToeJam is worried about him winning on Day 1 (see [post=14961052]post 983[/post]); this doesn’t really hod water as ToeJam never mentioned it.

While I think fubbleskag may have a wealth-accumulation wincon, and indeed suspect that there is more than one player with that wincon, it is quite plausible that these are third party players who share wins with Town or Mafia. So I’m not voting for him, on this basis anyway.

I’d like to make a point to a couple of people, particularly Choie, who I don’t tink I’ve played with before.
My 20 posts on Day 1 was a lot for me. Really. I typically manage 10 to 15. So to accuse me of making a small number of posts is not correct.

I made a miscalculation early on in N1 and left reading up for too long. And you lot were far too garrulous.

This is absolutely absurd. I refuse to believe that you genuinely and in good faith think I’m scummy at this point, and I refuse to believe that my voting NAF there genuinely and in good faith reinforces your view.

I FUCKING CARE ABOUT WHO FUCKING GETS FUCKING LYNCHED TODAY. JUST BECAUSE I DON’T FUCKING WANT TO FUCKING LYNCH ASTRAL OR MYSELF AND AM LOOKING FOR A BETTER WAGON FOR THE TOWN DOES NOT FUCKING MEAN I’M FUCKING APATHETIC.

Got that?

I have a problem with his logic in voting for you/keeping his vote on you for the stated reason. I don’t think it makes sense. But that’s not a scum ping per se (see my reaction to choie for instance), and otherwise the only thing that bothers me is his lack of immediate response to your informant’s contacting him. That strikes me as potentially being the action of someone who’s cautious about how to respond, instead of just responding naturally with a few words or whatever. I’ll look at his posts after I finish pulling up my Astral and MHaye cases again.

:confused: You are skimming just like (your fellow?) Scum, Bob. Both of you have managed to invert my meanings.

I suspect you because you’ve not been particularly anti-Septimus. My diction, tone and style lead to plenty of false scum-tells, and you usually react to them. That you’re not reacting this game may be because you already know I’m not Scum. (It could also be because you’re less active and diligent in this Game than usual, but that also suggests Scumminess.)

I approve of this post.

This strikes me as peculiar. I’m curious what other experienced players think of this approach. Has Suburban made similar statements in games where he’s been Town?

It’s not a good approach at all, and it doesn’t really comport with my experience of Suburban in games where he’s been town.

If I could stand on a soapbox for a second:

This is something that bothers me in mafia. People (like Normal Phase) have decided I’m scum. Therefore, all of my actions are evidence of scumminess. I suggest we keep an open mind about Gadarene: Normal Phase attacks my phrasing and sentiment. I defend myself: Normal Phase says that me defending myself is a scum tell.

In isolation, what do those two events really mean? In Gad’s case, I basically said “don’t snap to judgement, because that’s bad for town. Consider it as a data point.”

But because I’m “scum,” Normal Phase has to twist “don’t be hasty” into a scum tell, as if town is better served by immediately lynching Gadarene. Normal Phase has to twist “Astral hasn’t just shut up and let the lynch happen” into “Astral defending himself is clearly indicative of his scumminess.”

Do you see what I’m getting at? Because I’m scum, everything I do is a scum tell. Shouldn’t cases be built the other way?

Tl;dr version: Normal is not building cases honestly. Please lynch her tomorrow.

Whatever else, I’d really like tomorrow to focus as much as possible on people who are talking less over people who are talking more.

Anyway, my various issues with Astral. Please follow links, I have too many distractions to try to quote:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14942616&postcount=224

This and the following post. I had a slight issue on day one with what Inner points out here, that Astral’s vote on choie was a bit psychologically askew. Choie was if anything defending Astral by going after Guiri, yet he quickly jumped on her for doing that. When someone is going after you for a bad reason, it’s not entirely natural to vote for the person who agrees with you that the original vote was bad. Unless the original vote WAS bang on, and you know it. It’s a tiny thing, but I know it’s something I’ve done as scum myself and IMO it fits with some of his later behavior.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14961957#post14961957

This and the following post, in response to a post of Astral’s that’s just above it. Problems with Astral’s post summed up:
– seemed to be pushing HARD to suggest Gadarene as scummy, with all the stuff about how we should look at the suspicions of the now-dead presumed-townies, in which Gadarene’s name came up over and over again vastly more than any other living player. Yet he shied away from actually stating the obvious. It looks to me like he got that far, knew his logic was poor, yet left it in there for the impact.
– tons of vote analysis leading to a list of several potentially-suspicious pairs of players. I have issues with his methodology and again ,his lack of actually making anything concrete out of all the smudgery
– the two people he did name explicitly as suspicious were really easy targets
– he never mentioned MHaye even in passing ,and his vote was on MHaye at the time

The overall impression was a heck of lot of noise and smudging for very little actual scumhunting, presented in an unnatural, top-down fashion that looks to me more like “look how townie I’m being” than like anything else. Most fake-looking section:

And finally:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14968773#post14968773

Again with the weird choice of emphasis – his major point here is presumably how scummy I’m being, yet be barely touches on why. He spends a great deal of time cautioning the town to be fair as regards Gadarene, whom he says he thinks is town, yet also spends quite a few words on just why people might think he’s not. And a lot of farewell, this is ultimately good for town, and here’s all my information stuff. All of this read to me as fakey trying to look good. The worst bit:

That and the bit out how “ultimately” his lynch is in town’s best interest? Just looks fake.

Going back a couple hundred posts, there was some voting by **Visorslash **that bothers me:

Post 1200 (a responcse to a post by choie):

[quote=“Visorslash, post:1200, topic:617480”]

Your vote against Fubbles is ill reasonsed. If you think he is against the town by being third party, that is sketchy at best, and false at worst, and not a good reason to vote for him, though I suppose you could consider it a safe vote, considering he won’t be lynched. On the other hand if you are voting him for PMing people about business deals then that really is an anti town vote for which I am perfectly fine with voting you.

Now, in case the above does come true, I think I will pre-emptively: Unvote; Vote: Gadarene[/COLOR]
Post 1203:

[quote=“Visorslash, post:1203, topic:617480”]

We need a clear lynch. Unvote; Vote: Astral Rejection[/COLOR]

In between those posts were a reply by **choie **to Visor (Post 1201), and a vote by Silver Jan on Astral Rejection (Post 1202).

As of Visor’s vote on **Gadarene **(Post 1200), the count was

Gadarene - 4
Astral - 2
MHaye - 2
Weedy - 2
fubbleskag - 2

Jan’s vote then made it 4-3 in favor of Gadarene over Astral, and then Visor’s vote change in 1203 made it 4-3 in favor of Astral over Gad.

I fail to see how that last vote gave us a “clear lynch”…it seems to me we went from a 4-3 vote to a 3-4 vote. Why is one so much “clearer” than the other?

So “people”, presumably and by all past evidence including townies, tend to lock on to a suspect and suffer subsequently from confirmation bias. I happen to agree; it happens.

And yet this is evidence that:

So you’ve JUST said that this is something people do in mafia, something that bugs you and obviously not something you see as a scum tell per se. And yet a couple sentences later you are using it as evidence that I am dishonest.

Look at my original “omg astral’s scum” post and tell me again I’m working backwards, by the way. Tell me that was not honest.

And then you can answer my question about which of your defenders and unvoters might be scummy, if you’re so moved.

OK going through SP’s posts real quick and came across this one:

I’d consider this one a town tell if anything, Gadarene. Will continue, though I may run out of time here.

Normal, thanks for the reply regarding your case on Astral. I can see where you’re coming from, though I’m not sure I see his actions as being as Scummy as you do. But that’s fine; differences of opinion are part of what make this game so much fun.

I do wish some of the other Astral voters would also chime in, but I’m not really expecting that to happen at this point. In fact, I’m rather disheartened by the apparent lack of interest in this game on the part of most of the players at the moment. It seems that there are 5 or 6 of us who have been having an ongoing conversation today (small ‘t’), with everybody else mostly just waiting in the wings. By my count, Astral is currently 3 votes ahead of Gadarene, with 6 people not voting, and 5 others having ‘one-off’ votes, and just under 3 hours until Dusk.

I have a bad feeling about this.