[Mafia game] The Realm of Phere

[Astral_Rejection]

First off, as promised, here’s my info on role progressions. I’m not gonna bother listing the alignment requirements in the interest of not looking like I’m copying and pasting. All flavor is my own, for fun.

At level one, my career was wide open. As a soldier, I could:
[ul]
[li]Sling spells as a Mage! This would take one turn.[/li][li]Ride a steed as a noble Knight! This would take one level.[/li][li]Prowl the shadows as a Ninja! This would take 2 levels.[/li][li]Ravage my foes as a mighty Beserker! This would take two levels.[/li][li]Sing powerful songs as a Bard! This would require 4 levels.[/li][li]Heal my friends as a Cleric! This would require 1 level.[/li][li]Attack from a distance as a powerful Archer! This required 1 level.[/li][/ul]

I selected Archer for really just one reason. Askthepizzaguy implied that town would be better served by choosing a variety of roles to ensure town had as many powers available as possible. Archer was last on the list and sounded least cool of those options, so I took it while hoping nobody else would.

A level two, my options start to narrow. As an Archer, I could:
[ul]
[li]Forget my training and become a Soldier again. This requires 1 turn. Boo to that option.[/li][li]Protect the forests as a Ranger! This requires 3 levels.[/li][li]Tame wild beasts as a Beastmaster! This requires 3 levels. I wanna upgrade to this one, cuz it sounds cool.[/li][li]Strike fear in the hearts of wyrms and drakes as a Dragon Slayer! It was a tough choice, but on the off chance somebody else went archer, I figured they’d pick Dragon Slayer, so Beastmaster it is for me![/li][li]Prowl the shadows… again… as a Ninja! This requires 2 turns.[/li][/ul]

At level three, my options were the same. Please note, whenever I say “requires 3 levels,” I mean that requires 3 additional levels. For instance, a Beastmaster requires level 5 (I’m level 3). My Level 3 PM did not update to note this, which is why I’ve said “my options were the same.”

Some of these choices require alignments: for instance, Ranger requires a lawful & good character. A beastmaster requires a neutral & good character. I’m neutral & good, so things are looking up for me!

[Astral_Rejection]

Also note: all discrepancies between “turns” and “levels” are as they were told to me. For instance, at Level 1, Ninja requires two “levels.” At level 3, it was described as two “turns.” They appear to be interchangeable.

[Mosier]

@Visorslash

On topic: Mosier being resurrected by Phere is either scum getting a lackey, or some other thing with a condition.

I would urge any Day attackers, to kill Mosier. That is what I will be doing.

Zombie Mosier not lackey, not scum. Maybe demon spell not work like he wanted?

Maybe you want re-kill me, 'cuz when I die first time to save you, I not stay dead. Maybe you just scared townies keep attacking YOU, and you want them attack someone else instead.

[Mosier]

@choie

Personally I would feel more comfortable waiting to see how Mosier votes before doing any planning to attack the guy. He’s pretty badly hindered by his new zombie mode, but maybe his zombitiousness is simply a bargain he made in order to get brought back.

“No bargaaaaaaaaain. Zombish…ishness unexpected. I promise not eat good guys braaaains. I have same agenda as alive; stop town threats. Still good, not bad. Still soldier.”

[Weedy]

@choie

Weedy, girlfriend, if you read my posts elsewhere on the SDMB, you’ll know that I overexplain everything.

Could be true.

I don’t even get your using both “OMG she’s writing stuff just to write stuff and doesn’t seem to have it all planned out!” and “this seems too planned out!” as accusations. I mean… really? That’s what’s bothering you? Because at times my writing sometimes seems off-the-cuff, and other times seems too planned out? 'Cause to me, that sounds like perfectly normal behavior.

Here’s how I work on mesage boards. Basically what I do is, I think of what I want to say, generally speaking. Not to the point where I literally memorize all the words I plan on writing, but certainly I do get the general idea and outline for what I want to express.

Then I write. Then I rewrite. Then I look over the post some more and finally submit the damn post. And probably then, even after submitting the post, I’ll edit the fucker two minutes later.

Right. So when you say you find Gad and Astral equally Scummy, but goshdarn it, Astral is actually more scummy so you’re going to vote for him, you have planned to say it that way, and written and rewritten it that way because why?

When you advance a bunch of theories and say you don’t know how to pick between them and you have no idea what’s happening, why did you say that? It sounds like you’re thinking aloud, but you aren’t because that’s not the way you write. You think first and then you write.

I did feel I needed to explain my septimus vote, because people were taking it seriously, and this just blew my mind. So I wrote it out as if I were talking to humorless morons, because, well, that’s what these folks were coming across as. I still don’t know how anyone could’ve taken that vote seriously and be able to tie their shoes in the morning.

Let me ask you this. Is what you’re doing “smudging”? Because I don’t see a lick of difference in what you’re doing, and what I was doing when I thought Astral and Gadarene might be scummy. Why is it “smudging” when I call someone scummy, but apparently perfectly legitimate, wholesome Townie McTownerson behavior when you call me scummy?

I don’t think I’m smudging. I think I’m accusing. Smudging is more when you say that maybe Tanaer missed a post, oh my how convenient. Or Toejam has an annoying style that makes you wary of him. Not making cases or accusation, just little comments

And by the way, what’s wrong with explaining one’s thought processes? Isn’t that what we’re supposed to do here? Isn’t that the point of the whole Day phase, for pete’s sake? If no one pondered aloud, these game threads would have about fifty posts from start to finish.

Argh. Forget it, choie. It’s Weedytown.

Nothing’s wrong with explaining your thought processes, it’s just that they don’t make sense to me. When you say “I don’t understand Normal Phase, and it’s my own fault that I don’t know enough about this game”, and then you find her Scummy because you didn’t understand her. If you said: “Normal is being really weird. That makes me suspicious.” I would be fine with that. That would make sense, even if I disagreed about whether Normal Phase was being weird.

[Weedy]

Choie, I think people explaining their votes is good. The reason is, you can read their explanation and see if it makes sense.

I also think over-explaining smacks of a guilty conscience. This is not incompatible with explanations being a good thing.

[LightFoot]

@Weedy

Choie, I think people explaining their votes is good. The reason is, you can read their explanation and see if it makes sense.

I also think over-explaining smacks of a guilty conscience. This is not incompatible with explanations being a good thing.

Explaining your vote When You Make It=good for understanding.
Having to explain your vote afterwards= suspect at times.

[Astral_Rejection]

Thoughts compiled. Now the fun of turning them into a post. I’ve currently got 8 text windows of various quotes and thoughts filling my entire second monitor. Hopefully I can get this done in a reasonable amount of time!

[septimus]

Here’s a list of Lurkers:

1. Mahaloth – last post 16 April asking for sub. Many posts since in other threads.
2. Fubbleskag – 3 posts since 14 April.
3. PetW – posted only twice since 13 April, due to RL.
4. NAF1138 – 2 posts since 9 April.
5. BobArrgh – posting less due to RL.
6. Red Skeezix – several posts 13 April, none since.
7. realitytrip – averaged 1 post/day; last post 19 April.
8. Lilflower – two posts in game; last 9 April.
9. storyteller0910 – last post 5 April. He had Internet issues … still?

Should we look toward these lurkers for Lynching or Attacks?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I officially don’t have subs, and I’ve had at least one additional request to sub out, so deal with “lurkers” or inactives as you see fit. The Wrath of Demon will eventually clean up folks who aren’t playing.

[choie]

@Weedy

Choie, I think people explaining their votes is good. The reason is, you can read their explanation and see if it makes sense.

I also think over-explaining smacks of a guilty conscience. This is not incompatible with explanations being a good thing.

Seems like an awful fine line to me. If you’re unaware of what went down in “The Thrill of the Chase” then I had to explain why I voted septimus, because again, people couldn’t seem to grok that I’d done so humorously, which boggles the mind considering I voted him in the pregame for God’s sake, in huge massive letters! But there it is.

As I said (watch this, you’re forcing me to over-explain and now you’ll bitch at me for doing it), I don’t think out every single word before I write it–I’m not Wolfgang bleedin’ Mozart, y’know, who wrote only one draft of the music fully formed in his head. But when I wrote that post to which you take such offense, yes, I did know in advance that I wasn’t sure whether to vote for Astral or Gadarene. I wrote down my thought process as it had occured to me prior to the post.

Maybe my problem is that I’m an author who excels at dialogue, including internal dialogue, and apparently I’d successfully convinced you–as I’ve convinced many readers–that this dialogue was fresh, spontaneous, and off-the-cuff. Which pleases me, frankly. What I wrote is no less true just because it wasn’t utterly off-the-cuff; and it wouldn’t have been less true if it were off-the-cuff. I write as I feel. The fact that you’re damning me either way makes it pretty clear you’ve already decided I’m scum (or maybe a dangerous Townie to you, if you happen to be Scum) and it doesn’t really matter what I say. So following this post, I’m not wasting my time with you.

God, I don’t even remember what your problem with this was. You think I plan out what I write, which is suspicious, and then you think I’m writing off the top of my head, which is also suspicious. What’s the correct percentage, O Swami Weedy? What is the permitted allotment of spontenaity to pre-planning?

What would have been so horrible if I had been thinking while I was writing? You’re finding stuff suspicious that makes no sense. Sometimes, yes, I do write just as I think it at that moment. Many other times I don’t. Is it so impossible, so unfathomable, so suspicious, that people write off-the-cuff sometimes, and then those same people write in a more considered fashion at others? Is it just that you are incapable of doing one or the other of the above, and thus can’t fathom that some of us can do both?

Then again since you are under the belief that the way someone plays their first two games ever is thus damned to play exactly the same way throughout her Mafia career… I begin to wonder if you’re some kinda android or bot. You apparently have a problem understanding that most humans have the capability to grow, learn, and adapt. Assuming you’re not a bot and would pass the Turing test, I’d be utterly gobsmacked if we found your first game and discovered that you’d played precisely the same way then as you do now. Hell, if by some chance you are playing exactly as you did in your first game, that’s the real oddity, not my being able to modify my tactics as I learn more about the game. If you haven’t learned anything since your first game, that’s bloody weird.

I think it’d be very easy to chart a line going upwards regarding how I’ve played my first three Mafia games (this being #3). My first I had no confidence whatsoever and asked a fuckton of questions. My second I had marginally more confidence and played more aggressively. Now… well, here we are. In some ways my style is recognizable (Normal Phase certainly recognizes it), but in others it’s different. That’s a natural progression and I just cannot believe you don’t understand that.

Jesus, you’ve worn me out. I have no doubt you’ll now accuse me of over-explaining, so whatevs. I’ll just have to deal with the heavy, heavy burden of your vote.

[Astral_Rejection]

This is gonna be broken into a couple of sections. Hopefully there aren’t any huge errors - it’s late and I want to be done typing. I’ve been working on this for way too long.

The PetW wagon:

[spoiler]Let’s kick things off by listing the PetW voters.
Normal Phase
Gadarene (871)
gnarlycharlie (886)
Silver Jan (902)
Normal Phase unvotes (904): too many votes this early, doesn’t want MHaye to think she’s has stopped loving him. Votes MHaye
Silver Jan, 908, lampshades 3rd vote in 902, claims she didn’t see other votes. It’s not actually the third vote.
Two posts later, Silver Jan FOS me for my EOD shenanigans.
Red SKeezix (964)

Silver Jan comes off scummiest for me in this wagon, followed waaaaay distantly by Normal Phase. Silver Jan’s initial vote is fine:

@Silver_Jan

This post doesn’t sit well with me at all. What a fantastic way for scum to slip by unnoticed. No, I do not like this idea one little bit. If the vote leader is only leading by one vote and then everyone changes their vote that particular person, what info do we get the next Day. All the excuses would be “well we agreed to do it”.

Vote PetW

I could never vote for anyone I thought was Town, it just goes against the grain.

Normal Phase then unvotes PetW:

@Normal_Phase

That’s a lot of votes on PetW for this early in the day and I don’t want MHaye to think I don’t like him anymore.

unvote, vote MHaye

The implication here is that PetW is less suspicious due to how many votes he gained, and how quickly. Normal Phase does not mention this, and just leaves the wagon. Silver Jan then lampshades her vote:

@Silver_Jan

I voted before I got to the end of the posts lol, I often do that and perhaps I should stop, wasn’t mine the 3rd vote?

Not shown in my quote, Silver Jan quoted Normal Phase saying “that’s a lot of votes on PetW for this early in the day,” makes a joke, and calls attention to how her vote was the third vote. This feels scummy to me.

Silver Jan then launches into a FOS on me.

@Silver_Jan

If it is scum doing the invisible voting, and I ass/u/me it is, then they could just pile them on to the lynch leader and take credit either way.

Actually, as I said earlier, it might not just be scum doing invisible voting because there was an extra vote on** Gad**. Back to my usual confused state Why would scum split invisible votes?

I think I have to FOS Astral for his strange vote when he thought it was EOD and for the invisible votes skipping him and going onto** Mosier** who was 3rd in line for the lynch.

Her reason for FOSing me is partially old hat. Half of Silver Jan’s reason for suspecting me is my vote for Gadarene when I thought the day was about to end on Day 1. This was not suspicious enough to vote for me on Day 1, as her vote was for Visorslash. In fact, I went back and checked. This is how Silver Jan originally viewed my EOD vote:

@Silver_Jan

Astral nearly gave me heart failure with him thinking that it was so close to EOD, I don’t think it was a scummy move though, as someone before me said if he was scum, he would have been following the scum board quite closely and scum do tend to talk a lot on D1 and would have known exactly when EOD was.

In fact, that’s the only time Silver Jan mentions it the entire Day. So, to sum up: Silver Jan takes an okay if opportunistic vote, distances herself from it when Normal Phase casts doubt on the wagon, jokes about being the third vote when nobody brought it up, and then does a 180 on me to appear like she’s looking for another wagon. Super scummy.

Normal Phase looks scummy for her casual dismissal of the wagon she herself started, but if Silver Jan is scum, Normal Phase looks a little more townly. (can I adverb that?)[/spoiler]

Silver Jan:

[spoiler]There were a couple of Silver Jan quotes that caught my eye.

@Silver_Jan

I have been puzzling over the unvotes of** Guiri and the 3 votes for Astral**. What does it mean? Is** Astral** himself responsible for this? He might think that it would make him come across more Townie if he had the 3 invisible voter votes on him. It could also mean that he is really Town. The unvotes for** Guiri ** certainly make him look more Townie to me. Of course, the invisible voter might not be scum at all.

I see Visorslash is still being very abrasive! I do wish he would at least try and make a case against** Gad** instead of just baiting him.

It looks as if there could be a Weedy wagon starting, I wonder why? I wish I had more time to read but it’s a Friday night and I might have a glass or 4 of wine and then post and then get voted off for not making sense

I feel like this goes nowhere and is trying to look townie.

@Silver_Jan

Honestly,** Visor **is not playing the game. He wants **Gad **gone for no reason that I can see. If it turns out that Visor is Town well… he’s not helping Town at all.

Vote Visorslash

This is a terrible vote for a player. I especially dislike the end, which is leading the reader to conclude that Visor is no loss, even if we’re wrong and he’s town, and therefore the right lynch.

@Silver_Jan

I tend to agree with** Normal** about** Astrals** farewell post, it does seem contrived and flat.** Gaderene** has been fighting tooth and nail to stay alive and Astral has really just said that maybe his death would be good for Town. I think Astral is probably telling the truth when he says he’s an Archer but that doesn’t mean that he isn’t scum. It would have looked pretty funny if he’d said he was a submariner I also agree that there is at least one scum on that** Astrals** wagon.

Pretty much a copy of Normal Phase’s post, with less depth. Silver Jan is keyed in pretty tight with Normal Phase. Silver Jan also makes no effort to look for that “one scum” on my wagon.[/spoiler]

A total list of voters for me:

[spoiler]

@Normal_Phase

unvote, vote Astral Rejection

I’m almost positive. All of that “analysis” and you didn’t even mention MHaye? The guy you currently have a vote on? The best you can come up with is:

lilflower: Easy, easy easy target, even if she does ever turn up scum.
realitytrip: Same “crime” as you got picked up on, which is fine, but you spend more time explaining why you’re not being hypocritical than you do why he is scummy. This is the same issue as with MHaye – what exactly is your audience here and what are you trying to convince them of? That realitytrip is scummy? Or that you’re being reasonable?

Nothing – not one word – about MHaye, the guy you voted for yesterday while the bandwagon was getting rolling on you, and who you were quick to vote for today on the strength of your previous vote but MY case, to which you have added not so much as a sentence …

Your theory about single votes – which I think IS broadly valid, by the way, but on day one the least so of any day, and at any rate: I bet you’ll find scum in this bunch of eight people, but I’m only going to rule a few out and no one in …? And you half-qualify even the conclusions you do draw to the point of uselessness.

The thing about dead townies and the same names coming up over and over – you mean Gadarene and Mosier, those names? The guys who EVERYONE was discussing on day one? What on earth could you possibly even be aiming at with this, Astral, unless it’s some backhanded smudge of Gadarene? There’s no reason for it otherwise. This is not scum-hunting, Astral. You’re better than this. At this point I think you and MHaye are both scum, and you bussed him on day one thinking you might as well because you could be on the way out anyway.

I may as well add at this point that PetW’s responses since my vote have me substantially less suspicious of him than I was at the time I placed it.

Most of this doesn’t hold up. I should have called Normal on it at the time, but I thought I was dead soon and didn’t give it the attention it deserved. More importantly, someone else should have called Normal on it.

You start off poorly with your very first line. So what if I didn’t mention MHaye? I need to mention my chief suspect every time when considering cases on others? (Since I brought up MHaye, I should remind everyone I’m currently voting for Normal Phase) You have two snarky lines about it, trying to “remind” me who he is. (Again, even though I’m talking about MHAye, I’m currently voting for Normal Phase) Then, you shoot your own argument in the foot by jumping to my case on lilflower, implying I’m scum even if I’m right about her. Talk about a no-win situation. (Remember: I’m currently voting for Normal Phase. Not lilflower.). Then you bring up realitytrip, putting “crime” in scare quotes even though you actually agree with me about his case in other posts. (I’m voting for Normal Phase toDay, not realitytrip.)

Then we go back to MHaye, and you again call me out for not mentioning MHaye in my case on other players. (Mind you, I’m currently voting for Normal Phase toDay, even though I was voting for MHaye yesterDay) I’m gonna stop this “currently voting for” junk because I think I’ve made my point: it’s an annoying “scum tell,” and my vote for MHaye had no bearing on the case I was making against realitytrip and lilflower. I don’t get why you expect me to qualify every post I make by reminding people who I’m voting for.

I’m not gonna get into you dismissing my attempts to make sense of the vote charts, because I’ve disputed that elsewhere. Since we can hopefully assume I was at least town at the time, you know your suspicions about me were wrong. Maybe it made sense in your head before, but I don’t need to dispute it again.

Overall, this post feels disingenuous to me. It’s stretching to “solidify” a case on me.

@septimus

I’ve weakish Town reads on a few, and a slight Scum read on only one:

Unvote; Vote: Astral Rejection

This read follows others’ comments, as well as some (problematic) issues I won’t try to articulate. (I’m sure my failure to explain will be treated as Scummy, but, frankly, it’s annoying to spend time trying to be helpful knowing my comments are scrutinized for possible scumminess and have no other effect. I am Town but, if Lynched, may be little loss – I’m a bad player.)

I totally get where Septimus is coming from, and have no substantial issues with his vote. Septimus, don’t sell yourself short. I like playing with you.

@Silver_Jan

Another vote on** Gad** with no good reason!

I am going to

Vote Astral Rejection

Apart from his D1 shenanigans the triple vote/unvotes on him really makes him look scummy to me. I think that when the triple voter skipped over** Astral** yesterday and targeted** Mosier** instead, that made me think he could be scum. The triple vote/unvote just seems to confirm it.

The D1 shenanigans Silver Jan leaned town on in Day 1. The second reason makes sense to me. The third reason doesn’t. Silver Jan, can you explain how me getting triple-voted confirms anything?

@Visorslash

We need a clear lynch. Unvote; Vote: Astral Rejection

I accept this reasoning.

@GuiriEnEspana

What do you think it means, if anything? I was the recipient of the triple votes for a short period and then they were switched to Astral.

I’m probably playing into the hands of whoever manipulated the votes yesterDay but I still support an Astral lynch. I was pinged by his initial post. I thought he’d reacted well to the two votes until his second round of questioning to Gadarene and me - comparing his post to Glee’s. His vote on choie seemed like a misread of her post while making a determined effort to avoid omgusing or becoming over defensive. His vote on MHaye was fine, although I had a different take on MHaye’s playstyle. His vote switch may well have been well intended but it would have deprived Town of useful information. I also disliked his claim to protect choie, who he assumes is town, or others from outing themselves - his conviction that all vanilla know what’s going on read off. His promised WoW amounted to a vote analysis, which hasn’t resulted in anything, and self defense. It feels like he’s taking major steps to look pro-town without considering the implications and it feels forced. His explanation for attacking Bob - attacking someone he has no read on to see their reaction rather than attacking someone he suspects, protecting someone who may need it, or sitting on his weapon? And then he went quiet.

Vote Astral

I support a lynch of Scathach, ToeJam, or PetW too. I’d appreciate some response to the WoWs. I was starting to lean town on choie but dislike her lack of scum suspects and “next best thing” vote on Fubbles.

Funnily enough I’m not terribly enamored with Gadarene either, maybe it was the fishing about my damage, the argument that he was saved by a townie, the 7 point defense post, the relayed suggestion to attack the demon, the relayed accusations about Fubbles (although he never voted him). I too look forward to seeing what Suburban has to say.

@Weedy

Vote Astral Rejection

Mostly from my POV, to follow the wagon, but he seems like a decent lynch to me. There’s been a few strange things about him - the triple voter skipped him to lynch Mosier, and his vote for Gad at :56. It’s weird that he anticipated vote changing power there. I thought he might be double voter himself, but he claimed vanilla.

I’m going to bed now, probably won’t be back before EoD.

No issues occur to me.

@choie

Soooo Normal tells me I’m a crackpot for voting for fubbles, someone with two votes on him, because he’s never gonna be lynched. Then she places a vote on PetW. Who has no votes at all. And this isn’t a waste of a vote.

Normal exhorts me to vote for someone I don’t think is especially scummy over someone I think is. Is that how this game is supposed to work? I admit I don’t have the massive amount ofexpertise that Normal does, but I thought we were supposed to vote for people we think are scummy. Not whom other people think are scummy.

Frankly I think that sucks. But whatevs. Since I think Gadarene is town and I’m a bit more neutral on Astral, I guess he’s the one for the chop. And I think that sucks too, because I vastly prefer to vote for people on whom I have a much, much stronger feeling. fubbles meets that qualification and Astral doesn’t… at best he’s only slightly scummish to me, and that’s just because of those triplet votes that saved him the other Day. But okay, Normal. You win.

unvote fubbleskag
vote Astral

The above reminds me: again, for vote tallying purposes, PLEASE tell us whom you’re unvoting. And place it in red. Since I’m the only one tallying these days, it helps when people remind us where they’re votes were before they switch. (Actually that’s useful for all of us too.)

Obviously, voting me because somebody else told her to is a bad reason for a vote. Choie has copped to this, and in the absence of anything else pinging me, I see no scum motivation here.

@Tanaer

Nobody’s screaming scumminess at me at the moment, but an abstain/present won’t help anyone - except maybe scum. I’m not into Gadarene as a lynch candidate at all. So, since there were was that big vote save that benefited Astral as well, and his unusual fake-eod behaviour.. Guiri made a bunch of interesting points too, so

vote Astral Rejection

I won’t be around at EOD to see how all this goes. I hope I’m doing the right thing here!

I can’t find fault in the reasoning, but it sounds waffly in tone. I don’t have enough to go on to call it scummy, though.

@ToeJam

Just got caught up with reading the events.
Unvote Fubsy

Someone asked the question a while back do I think he’s scum or 3rd party. :Shrug: I don’t think he’s either. I think he’s just a neutral. Why was I voting for him? Because I think he was taking advantage of the Town. But w/e. It’s your items. If he betrays someone, he’ll be called out for it, and he’ll die then. No harm no foul, except he’ll probably still win- per Gad’s comment of win cons.
That said, I like **Taener’**s style. Cool. And I find myself agreeing with alot of what she’s saying, which makes me paranoid about her. But not in a “She must die!” sort of a way. But more in a “She’s the first one of the new people I actually really wouldn’t mind playing a normal mafia game” sorta way. She’s thinking, and I like her anti-Hughley stance.

That said. I know I’ve been busier (And Will be busy for the next week- as it’s finals week for moi- so upto April 20-22nd, I’ll be less my awesome self, and more my quieter self).

That said. Voting.
:shrug: Visorslash- I think he’s got a head inside the metal abrasive sponge technique. He’s gotten some good ideas out there, and he’s thinking. I feel better about not wanting to lynch him Day 1. He’s just going to take getting used to, and then analyzing his pithy replies.

I would like to hear Suburban’s reasoning for voting for Gadarene still. I thought it was a good point about the dual informer contact- that both may have been contacted… but Sub’s has not agreed/changed his style/ or mentioned anything about that.

I dislike the **PizzaGuy **voting/Unvoting by D.L. It’s alot of WIFOM to certainly make us wonder- is it someone else framing AstraL or is it Astra trying to make himself look less scummy for it.

All i know is there’s probably 3 votes coming out at the end of the Day to hit us where it hurts.

I think for now, I’m going to have to see what the demon was up to- easiest way to solve the WiFoM- it was done twice already (Astral/Gad lynch Day 1, were they spared or framed?), and now again for Astral (Avoid votes/Gain votes)?

I’m going to vote Astral Rejection.
Easiest way to cut through wifom is to drink it and see what happens. Risky, but at this juncture, I could use more information.

(oog: Also, I doubt I’ll be doing any voter analysis stuff for the next week or so, so thanks for picking that up, hopefully once all the graduation paperwork is done and finals over, i’ll be able to devote myself 100% to this game. /oog)

Again, I can’t fault the reasoning here.

@Normal_Phase

Switching to someone other than Astral, I mean. I do want Astral lynched over anyone who’s close to him now.

unvote
vote: Astral

Fair enough.

@septimus

I’ve expressed myself. But I’d rather work toward an Astral Lynch than give complete control to the (probably Scum?) triple voter.

Unvote: Suburban Plankton
Vote: Astral Rejection

If Lurkers were waiting till last minute to join a better wagon, sorry. Some of us have bedtimes.

Fair enough.

@MHaye

That took a while, and I still need to read from 1101 again.

My votecount has Astral at 6 votes, Gadarene, Normal Phase, and Weedy at 2, Choie, Believerer, myself, Scathach and Suburban Plankton at 1.

Weedy’s vote remains on me, in case anyone’s wondering.
I’ll remind you that there is not only a triple voter, but also two separate secret-voting players. If they all gang up, they could push Gad or I (say) - anyone with two votes - into the lynch lead.

[color=blue]Vote Astral Rejection[/c].

That’s one part self-preservation, two parts suspicion from Yesterday, one part “who did that triple vote actually save, Gad or AR?” and one part Normal’s critique of that farewell post found in [post=14961971]post 1037[/post].

I have no objection to this either.

Ultimately, to answer Normal’s question from before, the only person voting for me that I found suspicious… was Normal. Next section, we’ll tackle the people who unvoted me.[/spoiler]

[Astral_Rejection]

A total list of Astral wagon unvoters:

[spoiler]

@Weedy

Is it blue or red for unvotes?

unvote
unvote

vote: MHaye

I feel like he should have a lot more to say if he’s reading through the thread than discussing item votes (which he still doesnt vote) and Gadarene’s legal experience. He’s reading closely enough to keep track of votes, but is just touching lightly on a few issues in commentary.

I have a town lean for Weedy, and I have a scum lean for MHaye, so I can’t fault this post. At all points, I’ve thought MHaye was a better lynch than me.

@septimus

As others seem to agree, Astral is likely to be Town … or an excellent actor.

So, Astral is probably Town, but those who Unvote him now are probably Scum. Got it.

I don’t have a “really good case” on anyone right now, even Astral. I asked Townies to spend our (suddenly!) extra 24 hours to “start another wagon;” i.e. to identify a real Scum and avoid a likely misLynch. Sincere Townish help from me, but poorly phrased. I’ll be on the Lynching block soon. What else is new? :dubious:

For various reasons, but especially for “having his cake and eating too” – trying to Lynch Astral while letting us know Astral is Town:

Unvote: Astral Rejection
Vote: BobArrgh

This is actually pretty compelling. Septimus wasn’t hyped up about his vote for me to begin with, so I can accept his unvote. BobArrgh’s comment does indeed ping me, since it seems to imply I’m town, but people should still lynch me.

@Tanaer

I’m not surprised it pinged you. I wasn’t very happy with it myself. It was 1am or later, as it seems to be now, I was tired, I was sick, glancing back over posts wasn’t jumping anyone at me. I thought, at least there’s a chance if Astral gets lynched we’ll get some kind of info. So I went with the crowd against my better judgement, and it showed.

Things I can think of that have pinged me so far:
Weedy & Silver Jan arriving on the heels of one another and voting the same person. Felt like they were straight off some initial scum discussion or something. Something feels wrong still about Weedy. But I don’t know if I’m too close to read her.

Choie has over-harped on a few too many things, it feels like a cover-up job. Especially after she pinged me D1 with the question about how many scum & it’s follow-up comment.

Something about normal & suburban, but I can’t think what at the moment.
**
unvote Astral Rejection
vote Choie**

This unvote pings me. Tanaer voted for me because my death would provide information. Voting for Choie, who is not in lynching danger, will do nothing.

@choie

I’m sorry for not being more vocal today, though I think all my posts last night/this morning should count double. Also I’m having a really weird experience trying to order a gift basket for a friend. After ordering the basket, I discover the florists’ number doesn’t work, the town’s chamber of commerce doesn’t answer… very scummy indeed.

Anyway. I’m still suspicious as hell at Normal’s behavior at having started the bandwagon Today on Astral, then jumping off, and berating the rest of us for being on it. I agree completely with Astral about this “everything you say will be used against you, no matter which response you give” thing. I ran nto this with her in previous games and it is annoying as hell. BUT she’s been town at least once with that same attitude, so as frustrating as it is, it’s not a scum tell on her.

However, since the only reason I was voting Astral was basically to be a good little Townie and do as mommy told me to do, only to see mommy do the opposite (“do as I say, not as I do!”), it’s time for this kid to go through her rebellious phase.

unvote Astral
vote Normal Phase

Not because of her “AHA Gotcha!” posting style no matter what Astral says, but because her bulldozing of the rest of us yesterday seemed aimed at getting Astral lynched and her jumping off the bandwagon seemed aimed at making her look good if/when Astral flips town. Since I’ve been scolded for voting for fubbles and told there’s no way he’ll ever get lynched, fine. I’m going back to voting my conscience, though. So as Normal is second on my list of scumminess, she’s up at bat.

BTW, I literally have no idea what the votes are right now, and it’s time for someone else to do the math, so whoever that someone is, please have at it!

This doesn’t read scummy to me.

@Weedy

unvote
unvote

Vote Astral Rejection

Forgot to do this before I went to bed last night. I know people will hate the last minute vote change, but I’ve been asleep for the last 7 hours.

This looks suspicious-esque. I still have a town lean on Weedy, but it’s something to remember for later.

Of these people, Tanaer & Weedy come out looking the worst to me.[/spoiler]

Random Suspicions:

[spoiler]Gnarlycharlie’s vote for PetW. Click here to view it with quotes intact.
I called him out for this after he posted it, but it bears repeating: this is a weak reason to vote for someone. “Pressure” is a generally a fine reason to vote for someone, but it’s not a solid reason to jump onto a wagon. Gnarlycharlie was the third vote for PetW, and it feels like he was really reaching for something to say so that it wouldn’t be a “me too!” vote. Which is is, since he says “more pressure.” Weedy calls gnarly out for this post, which helps my town lean for Weedy. Her post felt honest.

@Silver_Jan

Unvote PetW

On reading that this is only his second game I think he might just have been trying to be helpful and not really trying to boss Town around.

I want to have a good look at Astral, I have a FOS on him already but I want to have a more solid argument either for or against him.

Again, I get the sense that Silver Jan is looking to avoid controversy while searching around for a good case.

@septimus

I’ve not tried to do this myself, but it shouldn’t be hard to figure out who, if anyone, Gadarene’s contact is. Several players can be ruled out by Gadarene’s discussion. He posts an alleged PM verbatim and (although I’m too groggy and lazy to attempt it now myself) it shouldn’t be hard to compare styles and make a good guess about the PM’s author.

But … it seems possible the whole PM is just Gadarene’s forgery. The idea advanced earlier that Astral and Gadarene are fellow Scum bussing each other seems plausible. I’m almost tempted to move my Vote to Gadarene and take up Fubble’s offer …

Where were you going with this, Septimus? You don’t bring it up again, as far as I can tell. Your vote is on me at this time, and you’re thinking about switching to Gadarene, because… Gadarene and I might be scum buddies?

@septimus

You had me fooled. :mad: FOS.

Did you fool Astral too, or was that a sham?

I hate boring Ends-of-Day. Someone please get another wagon going.

Turns out it wasn’t a sham! I note that this comment, like the quote above, is never followed up on.[/spoiler]

Happy Soapbox Fun Time:

[spoiler]Normal Phase, I’ve noticed several comments throughout the game that you think I don’t like you. That’s simply not true; I have a lot of respect for you, and you’re a formidable player in this game. You also mentioned that I “never responded” yesterDay to a request of yours to look among my defenders and wishy-washers and find who looked suspicious, and I wanted to explain why that was.

At times in this game, I’ve felt that you’ve been absurdly antagonistic towards me, and your line-by-line rebuttals of my (townie!) thoughts left me unwilling to take the time to write out more of them. I didn’t feel like explaining who on the wagon was suspicious when I believed you would attack my thoughts, and then when I was dead they would be forgotten.

Here’s a relevant quote from this game:

@Normal_Phase

Heh. Crappy accusations against me as town tend to make me just a wee bit unhinged.

So hopefully you can understand why I was unwilling to spend my time examining the game state before my death. Let’s flip roles. You’re a townie Astral Rejection. Here are some of your quotes:

@Normal_Phase

This is probably pointless right at the moment, but I gotta be me.

I don’t believe for a second that this post was “quick thoughts”. Every inch of it looks carefully constructed for maximum impact.

Yeah, you’ve been “trying”. That’s the whole reason you’re suspicious. It all looks like “trying”. It doesn’t look like “being”.

Oh noes, not caution. Because Astral really thinks he’s town, guyz. Despite that he can’t stop talking about how everybody ELSE will think otherwise for such excellent reason.

Uh huh. You know, most townies would just say something along the lines of “I know the vote thing points as much to Gad as to me, but I really kinda think he’s been acting townie. I’m not in favor of his lynch, going forward.” Not all this pussy-footing about regarding how all-fired reasonable the suspicion is, and how you just know everybody’s going to be dying to discuss it – but just be cautious. You know. Because townie Astral has our best interests at heart and he wants to make sure you know it.

I don’t buy a word of this, Astral. It’s BS in a different way from choie. She got carried away and let her paranoia run wild. This from you is entirely calculated to remind people that Gadarene is suspicious without gettng the dirt on your hands.

You don’t say. “Ultimately?” Really? This is not a spontaneous post. This is a prepared statement.

Now write me a brand new post in response about who you find suspicious.

@Normal_Phase

I think Astral’s trying imply that he will flip as “good”, though I have no idea why he wouldn’t just come out and say it.

Why is this presented as a scum tell?

@Normal_Phase

I’m often sympathetic to “bad bandwagon” reads, but I’ve seen nothing from anyone beyond “he looks townie” or the like. No reasoning whatsoever. Where is it, Astral?

Why is it my job to explain why someone else thinks my wagon was a bad wagon?

@Normal_Phase

Whereas it’s exactly the tone that has me crawling half out of my skin with “SCUM HERE”, especially the section about Gadarene in the latest long post. It looks so incredibly constructed to me, towniness as as a pose (oh so reasonable, oh so fair, and so on) instead of towniness as it usually is, which is messy, frequently hypocritical, and often unfair.

I think you’re the first person to make “being reasonable and fair” a scum tell. I get where you’re coming from with the “constructed” comment, but as a townie, it’s impossible for me to dispute it, and it feels like an unfair attack.[/spoiler]

Conclusions:
Silver Jan is now the most suspicious player to me, so I’ll
Unvote
Vote Silver Jan.

Also acceptable lynches to me: Normal Phase, MHaye, gnarlycharlie,
Other current scum pings: tanaer (pinged me on my vote AND unvote), BobArrgh, PetW

Town leans: Gadarene, Weedy, ToeJam (for post 1306 - it has a town feel to it.)

Re: lurkers. I think Phere will kill them at the end of toDay, assuming they haven’t voted. If they’ve voted but aren’t playing, I’m in favor of combine our kills and clearing them out.

[Weedy]

Choie, I haven’t even voted for you.

It doesn’t seem to me that you read what I said at all, and you are just going off at me for whatever reason you can come up with.

I haven’t decided if you are scum or not. I’m trying to read you and work out why you say the things you do. Do you feel attacked, so you are attacking back or are you trying to make me back down because you have something to hide. I think maybe the former. If you were Scum I feel like you’d try to sweet talk me a little here. It’s hard to say though, when I don’t know you very well.

[gnarlycharlie]

@choie

I’m afraid I’m still learning even after playing two whole games. Maybe when I’ve played 3494745939755 mafia games on 47393 different boards like you, I’ll catch up and understand the apparently massive difference between “voting for someone no one else is going to vote for but trying to convince people to do so nevertheless” and “voting for someone whom everyone has affirmatively chosen to unvote/exonerate and not trying to persuade them to jump back on that person’s bandwagon.” 'Cause again, I’m just not seeing why one of these vote choices is more worthless than the other.

i’d like to think we keep learning whether we’ve played two or 3,494,745,939,755 games. to elaborate on the discussion about fubbles, third party doesn’t mean against town. i believe you made comment to that effect. they can win with town or scum.

anyway, i felt your vote would be more productive elsewhere as he had been discussed but most felt he was harmless and wouldn’t be lynched.

@Believerer

Considering all the facts, it’s hardly surprising that I failed to post last day (or is it “Day” here?).
Normal Phase, Visorslash and ATPG know my playing style and it will become obvious how I prefer to play.
I did not lurk however, I was prohibited from posting earlier than I did. Now I’m around forever (and you shall know it).

i saw a reply to being questioned for this. can you elaborate? did you have restrictions or were you prohibited by lack of time?

@Silver_Jan

Something else to keep in mind, the two players that have been resurrected were lynched, the players that are still dead were NK’d.

Yeah, I forgot to say 'bye to** Guiri** too and I am fairly convinced he was Town.

interesting observation.

@choie

NETA: I guess I should’ve said “good dead citizens” rather than Townies, since I forgot we can’t assume they’re Townies.

Fuck. Why is it this game contains sooo many mechanics I’m utterly unfamiliar with?! ARGH!*

• No I’m not a zombie.

i think a lot of us are unfamiliar so we’re just as confused as you are. i have played D&D and i’m still a bit lost.

@Mosier

Day bring out more bad feeling. Light hurt eyes. Night more comfort. Not so confusing in dark-time. I smarter, stronger at night.

does this mean you have abilities at Night? can you speak straight at Night?

@Astral_Rejection

Gnarlycharlie’s vote for PetW. Click here to view it with quotes intact.
I called him out for this after he posted it, but it bears repeating: this is a weak reason to vote for someone. “Pressure” is a generally a fine reason to vote for someone, but it’s not a solid reason to jump onto a wagon. Gnarlycharlie was the third vote for PetW, and it feels like he was really reaching for something to say so that it wouldn’t be a “me too!” vote. Which is is, since he says “more pressure.” Weedy calls gnarly out for this post, which helps my town lean for Weedy. Her post felt honest.

are there rules for pressure voting that i’m unaware of? when was this again? D1, right? was i the only one with a weak vote?

[Mosier]

@gnarlycharlie

does this mean you have abilities at Night? can you speak straight at Night?

Not know. Day hungry hungry hungry. Night can relax.

[Scathach]

@BobArrgh

I have a feeling Scum will be jumping off the Astral bandwagon, just to keep him around long enough for him to be the wagon toMorrow.

I agree with those who said that this post reads wrongly.

Looking at BobArrgh:

@BobArrgh

Gadarene, how do you know your informant has contacted Suburban?

If you only have this knowledge through private communication, then there are 3 possible conclusions:

1. Your informant is lying to you about contacting Suburban;
2. You are lying about being contacted by an informant;
3. You are telling the truth.

The way I read it, there is a 2/3 possibility that you are anti-Town and a 1/3 possibility that you are pro-Town and being railroaded.

This post seems designed to make **Gad **look bad. If you actually consider the options, both 3 and 1 still involve **Gad **telling the truth. Only one of those options is **Gad **being deliberately anti-town. There are legitimate reasons to be suspicious of Gad because of informer gate but what’s presented here is not one of them.

@BobArrgh

Astral, I’m sorry to see you get mislynched. I hope we can use your sacrifice properly and nail the Scum.

Rings a bit false considering. Also, as has been pointed out, we don’t actually know that it was a mislynch given that all that’s been revealed is moral alignment.

@BobArrgh

Tanaer’s posts:

#16 - She’s busy and needs to plan.

#223 - Bad Internet access, comment on choie talking about the number of scum. She’s busy and has to dash.

#599 - Confirms that soldiers are aligned with elemental types.

#1096 - The first post of any substance, but not a whole lot of that, and she only puts forth a few theories.

So, yeah, I’m not sure she has given enough information to make someone lean Town.

She admits to being a newbie (no harm there, we all have to start somewhere). However, I am getting a ping that she may be out of her comfort zone and is hiding behind being busy. A nice strategy for a Scum newbie.

Not enough posts for someone to say they lean town on her, but enough for you to imply she’s scum?

@BobArrgh

Well, nuts … I just realized that those pretty items we are voting on can go two ways. I certainly proceeded thinking that it was desirable to vote on a precious and win it. Thus, people voting to give the item to someone else could be seen as a “friendly” thing to do.

However, it is equally possible that an item is poisonous, or a type of bomb, and voting to give someone an item (especially if one knows that said item is toxic) is actually an attack.

Why would they be poisonous or a bomb? Given that someone already had them and presumably were neither poisoned or blown up? It just seems designed to sow confusion but seem really townie and afraid of hurting people.
** unvote choie **

** vote BobArrgh **

[Normal_Phase]

For future reference, Astral, if I think there’s something acummy or suspicious about how a wagon quickly came up, I will say so (as I later did with the post-Guiri votes on you). I was not disavowing the PetW wagon; I simply left it because given the size of the bandwagon, I thought my vote would do more work elsewhere.

I’m curious to know if anyone else interpreted it that way.

[Astral_Rejection]

@gnarlycharlie

are there rules for pressure voting that i’m unaware of? when was this again? D1, right? was i the only one with a weak vote?

Day 2, not Day 1. There aren’t “rules” for it, but you hopped on a wagon with a me-two vote.

In fact, I don’t understand any of your questions. I explain in the first section my feelings on that whole wagon, and I discuss Silver Jan at length as a suspicious person.

[BobArrgh]

@Scathach

Why would they be poisonous or a bomb? Given that someone already had them and presumably were neither poisoned or blown up? It just seems designed to sow confusion but seem really townie and afraid of hurting people.

This is utterly ridiculous. When I made this statement, it was still Day 1, and the items had not changed hands. Bombs typically don’t go off until they are passed to someone, and poison doesn’t kill until it is given to someone.

Thus, at the time, it was a reasonable assumption that the items could be negative to whomever got them.