Mafia Reunion - Day Two

[raventhief]

@Khameleon

Ok - Crys75, do you want to perhaps re-think your claim that Brewha’s and your switch PMs are the same and that the Captain’s is different. For some stupid reason I cannot find Brewha’s post with the quote of his PM, but I did find yours and Captain K’s (sorry, I copy-pasted them into another document as opposed to quoting them - I included post numbers however):

---

Crys75’s PM:

Post #534

Knock knock knock
There is someone at the door. It’s a delivery man! Sign here please. Thank you.

You open up your package.

Inside is a box with a label. The label says (redacted) switch. What does it do?

The switch is currently in the on position. You can toggle it if you like each Night. The next Night it will reset itself. Oh and there is also a note that there is another one of these out there. Huh. They may effect each other.

Have fun with your gift!

---

Captain K’s PM:

Post #366

Knock knock knock
There is someone at the door. It’s a delivery man! Sign here please. Thank you.

You open up your package.

Inside is a box with a label. The label says [scumrole redacted] switch. What does it do?

The switch is currently in the on position. You can toggle it if you like each Night. The next Night it will reset itself. Oh and there is also a note that there is another one of these out there. Huh. They may effect each other.

Have fun with your gift

---

It looks to me like Crys75’s and Captain K’s PMs are the ones that match, leaving Brewha with the one that’s different.

Nice catch Chronos on the Brewha lie.

I was one of the first to find Brewha suspicious and it looks like those suspicions may have panned out.
So:

Vote Brewha

As for Crys75, I’m actually inclined to at least partially believe her. I agree with whoever said that the actual writing of her role PM sounds very much like it was written by our mods. The claim and PM are detailed and unique enough that I’m not sure anyone would risk making them up. Whether or not a few words were changed, I have no idea. But for now I find Brewha more suspicious.

Here is the link to the switch pm brewha got.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19932232&postcount=236

[HookerChemical]

@LightFoot

I know I am tired- and maybe that is why I can’t understand what you are saying here?

That was my way of saying my memory was wrong by presenting the evidence that Crys said the opposite of what she said.

@Crys75

Brewha pm matches mine pretty much word for word which I already posted

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

Here, Crys says the wording is similar to to brewha’s.

@HookerChemical

Oh, sure, you say you said the thing I’m quoting above, but I remember it differently. One of us is clearly wrong.

unvote all[color]

My vote was heavily influenced by my inaccurate memory. I’ll try and make sense of this again in the morning. There’s plenty of time.

Here I post the evidence that contradicted my previous assessment, and revoked the vote that assessment was based on. “One of us is clearly wrong” while posting the evidence that Crys said what she claimed she said was to indicate that I was wrong because Crys was clearly right. However…

@Khameleon

Ok - Crys75, do you want to perhaps re-think your claim that Brewha’s and your switch PMs are the same and that the Captain’s is different. For some stupid reason I cannot find Brewha’s post with the quote of his PM, but I did find yours and Captain K’s (sorry, I copy-pasted them into another document as opposed to quoting them - I included post numbers however):

---

Crys75’s PM:

Post #534

Knock knock knock
There is someone at the door. It’s a delivery man! Sign here please. Thank you.

You open up your package.

Inside is a box with a label. The label says (redacted) switch. What does it do?

The switch is currently in the on position. You can toggle it if you like each Night. The next Night it will reset itself. Oh and there is also a note that there is another one of these out there. Huh. They may effect each other.

Have fun with your gift!

---

Captain K’s PM:

Post #366

Knock knock knock
There is someone at the door. It’s a delivery man! Sign here please. Thank you.

You open up your package.

Inside is a box with a label. The label says [scumrole redacted] switch. What does it do?

The switch is currently in the on position. You can toggle it if you like each Night. The next Night it will reset itself. Oh and there is also a note that there is another one of these out there. Huh. They may effect each other.

Have fun with your gift

---

It looks to me like Crys75’s and Captain K’s PMs are the ones that match, leaving Brewha with the one that’s different.

Nice catch Chronos on the Brewha lie.

I was one of the first to find Brewha suspicious and it looks like those suspicions may have panned out.
So:

[COLOR=“Blue”]Vote Brewha[COLOR]

As for Crys75, I’m actually inclined to at least partially believe her. I agree with whoever said that the actual writing of her role PM sounds very much like it was written by our mods. The claim and PM are detailed and unique enough that I’m not sure anyone would risk making them up. Whether or not a few words were changed, I have no idea. But for now I find Brewha more suspicious.

Thanks, Khameleon. Now I know why I was thinking what I was thinking. Here’s brewha’s, from D2.236, for the record:

Oh, one more thing. You also have a switch. It’s labeled “Alternate Universe Batman Switch”. Each Night, it begins in the “on” position and you may flip it to “off” or leave it alone. There is another switch like this out there, by the way.

I’m back to voting brewha. It’s the mismatch.

[color=blue]vote brewha

[HookerChemical]

Ravens have an advantage when it comes to being ninjas because of their natural black coloring.

[Meeko]

@Chronos

Oh, and Johnny Bravo, your plan depends on two key assumptions, which are unlikely to both be true. The question is whether it’s better for the Scum to target known Masons, or potential other power roles. One is actually better for them, and one of them they’ll think is better, and your plan depends on those two being different, i.e., that they’ll make the wrong choice. Better to not give them the choice at all. Just let Masons and Cultists alike stay quiet until they’re under pressure, and claim then, just like Masons would ordinarily do.

Wow.

Chronos does that mean to imply you think all the other plans on the table will,work?

The amount of conscription and plain out “X will do Y, because I simply say so” is so rampant in this game, it makes the game strictly unplayable for… And yeah I’ll go ahead and say it, non power town.

The only reason ANY of these plans will get off the ground, is because scum and third party want them to to, and are actively manipulating them. After all, the ONLY amount of coordination sufficient to have this work, for any, is by it’s definition non-towny. A fools errand at half.

I swear, one day I will play a game of Mafia by actually going through it, and none of this let’s me obtuse just to be obtuse, and actually brainstorm, not barnstorm the mechanics.

There is no “playing” of a game of you go to the back of the book for the answers. This is true for claiming, of any flavor. Using switches in any coordinated effort becomes such a flavor of claiming.

“I’m X, and I will do Y now. You can trust me.” Repeated by as many players as needed, and then followed out to the letter would make for a very, very short, unfun game. It’s like “Wargames”, the only move is not to play. Eventually we would stop playing.

“I’m X, and I will do Y now. You can trust me.” Repeated by a few players, and then ignored (or fabricated) would make for a shorter, frustrating game. …Stop me if you heard this.

Obviously I play Mafia games for different reasons. Actually playing.

I seriously question why you guys always make Mafia something it’s not. No amount of thinking, in this area, will rewrite the starting problem, recalculate the starting numbers of town, or scum, etc.

The game is words. Then powers, used expediently. Not the continual opening of pandoras boxes by unvetted players doing half baked things, that are, or can be manipulated.

.
.
.

Yes, this is closer to my old way of ranting.

I kinda thought we were past this.

This is not Mafia. That is why it will fail.

[TexCat]

@Captain_Klutz

So your method of finding your fellow cultists is to make a random guess? You did not look for any clues that might point to a fellow cultist?

My problem with your claimed role is that it doesn’t really work properly. You are limited to finding only one fellow member, which doesn’t really make sense. In addition, since your PM is known only to yourselves it would be trivially easy to breadcrumb by using something from it. Something that is noticeable to anyone who has seen that role, but innocuous to others. But it seems that all 5 cultists didn’t think of that, as you didn’t see anything that made you sit up and take notice. Instead you just made a random guess.

But what if you are telling the truth? Then you would be a mislynch. But that may not be all bad, if we get confirmation of whether you are hostile or non hostile. If you are indeed non hostile, then that is great. We would have 4 people who could confirm each other and are not scum. That is an impressive block of unlynchables that would make it very difficult for any scum team to get a majority (yes, we may need to be more careful as we near the endgame, but that is a long way away).

The worst result is if you are revealed as third party but no indication of hostile/non hostile. Then it’s a mislynch for no gain.

I’m happy with my Crys vote.

I agree with most of this.

Why did Crys claim in the first place? She claimed to save Brewha who she for unexplained reasons thought was a cultist. She’s unwilling to explain why she thought Brewha was a cultist. She’s unwilling to explain why she thought Drain was a cultist. She tries to just shrug it all off with random hunch. I might buy random hunch on the Drain investigation, but I don’t think that you claim like Crys did on a random hunch.

Crys is hiding something about why she thought Brewha and Drain were fellow cultists. And why? I think because she doesn’t want us finding them ourselves. But why would she worry about that if they were benign third party? It sure looks to me like they are evil cultists.

And why hasn’t a fellow cultist stepped up to verify Crys’s claim? The obvious answer is that they know they’ll be lynched when we discover that Crys’s claim is not true.

The rules do talk about 3rd parties with exclusive wincons. So I’m inclined to think that they do exist. I’m certainly guessing that is what Crys is.

I am also happy with my vote on Crys. And I think this is a perfect use for our second lynch!

[Meeko]

@brewha

You got me. Yes I lied. And what sucks is that I realized it as soon as I posted that.

I’m 100% on the wagon that town should never lie. And if someone is caught in a lie, it’s a scum tell.

I absolutely should not have stated that I had no evidence to the contrary - but once I posted it, I really didn’t have much for options.

I could edit the post - but that looks scummy.

I could have posted that yes I do have evidence to the contrary - which would have looked better had I admitted it before I was caught in a lie - but I didn’t want to do a full claim yet, and didn’t want to pull a magic bag.

Bad play on my part - but can we go ahead and not lynch me today? Good chance that I’ll be dead by morning. Whether the vig was going to target me or not before, good chance he’ll change his mind if I thinks I’m a liar.

Unvote Sachertorte

Vote Brewha

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

For it being a game of words, you sure don’t seem to enjoy when people use those words to strategize and think out loud, Meeko. Your thesis doesn’t seem to be ‘only Scum would do that’ maybe ‘only Scum can possibly benefit from that’ to which I can’t disagree more.

If you are vanilla town with no switch as you imply, you are setting a really bad example of how to have fun and engage with the game and do your best for your faction even if you don’t have a power, which will pretty much always be the situation of most people playing at any given time.

We’re what, supposed to sit here dutifully and only comment on moderator posts or the posts of other players about moderator posts, or maybe claims or investigation results? But no…not strategy or poking holes in strategy or building/assuaging suspicions based on how and when people strategize. No, no. That might actually be a fun game to try and play and we wouldn’t want that because it somehow isn’t Meeko Mafia.

[Meeko]

On Switches

Immediately, the entire notion of one player, two choices, multiple trials [The switch resets nightly] strikes me as Game Theory, namely, Prisoners Dilemma.
.

The switches are probably lesser in number than not. [I thought we were told the exact number already. But hey, if no one else wants to look that up, why should I?] This holds from the game theory perspective [and from a switch / logic gate perspective] and from a Mod perspective also. Namely, the exponential increase of combinations is not something to wish on anyone.

Game theory would love to hold that there is only one switch per side. … Most game theory is eventually boiled down to only two ““players”” [[Game Theory term, not actual Mafia Players]] or teams… Expound on this freely.

In short, prisoners dilemma is only favorable to both, if both players can be trusted to make less than self serving moves. Nash equilibrium and what not. I’m abstracting here… I don’t think you guys would mind.

However, because we are playing Mafia first, and Prisoners Dilemma second, we can’t reverse the order. Namely, the strategies are less “free” to employ. Dominant strategies not only exist, I would argue they are extremely easy to find, and will always be played once found.

This is the problem. I’m stating it more eloquently now. :::

We can build all the castles in the sky that we want. It won’t change that Mafia, by it’s definition, is unfair to town.

You guys want to change cold, hard, unflinching numbers. Numbers don’t change. Numbers don’t slip.

If we devote ourselves to math, … There is no room for slips to exist. There is no “exit strategy” for town to get to victory. The math, is the math, is the math. Talking about the givens until we are blue in the face, only leaves us with red herrings.

Yes. I’m aware I probably have unfinished thoughts here.

Look. I wanted to link to Prisoners Dilemma [And the other five or so 2x2 “simple games”] on Wikipedia, but I’m no longer motivated to do so. It feels fruitless. My main idea is here, in this post, and I think, frankly, you guys get my point.

I’m leaving this post as it is, because, despite having [I’m assuming] a disjoint appearance, this is closer to who I actually am as a person. I’m driving at saying, I’m not “”“rehearsing”"" this post, because I think in my case, the more times I touch up a post, it only confuses everyone. You can’t step twice into the same river, and all of that.
I just trying to say, I’m sick and tired of people playing Mafia, trying to make things something they aren’t, while ignoring the obviousness what they are.

There is no point in trying to make an effort on co-ordinating switch toggles. I doubt we will get the agreement we need at the moment of truth, (The night actions won’t all agree with what the switch holders say they will do.) I doubt we fully understand the switches. I mean this to include non-switch holder town, Town in general, and yes, even everyone playing. …**The switches won’t be fully understood, until after the game is over. Period, full stop. Regardless of how much information you may personally have on the subject. **
.
.
.

And no, I’m not going to preview my post either. My Pony quote, on being understood? Yes, you better believe it goes in, however.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

All this superfluous switch discussion uncovered a lie, 3 switch claims, a role claim potentially shedding light on a whole undocumented 3rd party faction, and has handily parked two switch claimers in multi-lynch hotseats and put switch coordination plans on the back burner. How will this work out for Town? We’ll see, but none of it would have happened, apparently, if we were playing Meeko Mafia. We’d just be picking through Day 1 vote behaviors, always a surefire way to hunt Scum.

There may be some sarcasm in the above…

[ToeJam]

Sorry guys.
I’m alive. I think. Maybe? I got the message from NAF about being modkilled if I don’t post, and while I wish I could say I’m a cop just slowly laying low and accumulating lists of townies or something like that… It’s nothing like that.
I’m just a busy guy who ends up working these last few weeks until 9pm and then coming home to get up at 5am to do it again…

So I’m literally on Page 7 of Day 1 and can’t really say I know what’s happened since then. But if you guys need a vote or something so we don’t lose another townie, I’ll take a shot in the dark by reading this page (page 15).

So just in case voting is what’s needed to keep me alive. I see that Brewha is apologetic about lying and claiming town. And there’s a lot of switch business. Great. Something about Chrys and Captain K. Claims. Cultists? I don’t even remember the initial roles of the game. -__-

Well. Purely on Lynch all Liars until I either die or have a chance to catch up…

**
Vote Brewha**
-R

I wish I could say I could do better, but let me start by trying to read Day 2. Unless there should be some reason I should read Day 1 first.
I’ll get to that whenever I can I suppose.

[ToeJam]

Wait.
Did you guys try to lynch me day 1? O_O
And we lost a cop?
WTF is going on here?

[storyteller0910]

I think it is definitely time for a

VOTE COUNT

1 – brewha (14 votes) – Chronos (538), Biotop (543), Boozahol Squid (556), Cometothe…Cookies (575), sachertorte (576), bufftabby (622), Drain Bead (638), raventhief (646), paulwhoisaghost (702), Khameleon (716), Lakai (720), HookerChemical (722), Meeko (726), ToeJam (730)

2- Crys75 (8 votes) – Guiri (262), Sunny Daze (568), Hockey Monkey (584), DiggitCamara (588), AngeloftheNorth (595), Texcat (639), Captain Klutz (640), snfaulkner (641)

3 – Pleonast (2 votes) – Lightfoot (288), Thing Fish (297)

PLAYERS WITH ONE VOTE:
ToeJam (Idle Thoughts – 32); Hockey Monkey (Hoopy Frood – 665); Sario (ProfPepperwinkle – 46); Texcat (Plumpudding – 68); Thing Fish (Pleonast -121); Chronos (Nanook – 151); Meeko (Johnny Bravo – 169); paulwhoisaghost (Zeriel – 529); Captain Klutz (Crys75 – 582).

---

With the current vote count, brewha, and only brewha, will be lynched.

Day 2 will end at 3:00PM Eastern Standard Time tomorrow (Sunday, January 22), or in about 28 hours. As a friendly reminder, all Day actions must be submitted by this time.

As always, there are no powers that affect the vote count. Any apparent irregularities are the result of moderator error.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Prioritize Day 2 in your current pinch, my $0.02.

[ToeJam]

Wait. AM I posting to not get modkilled just to get lynched today? O_O

Whelp.
Joy.

[ToeJam]

Ah. Thanks Story.
I’ll keep reading Day 2 then.
Though a preemptive ** FOS on Idle Thoughts ** for voting for me on page 1, and still keeping his vote on a guy who nearly got modkilled. Jeez. Unless he’s been gone for the past week too.
-R

[Meeko]

@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

For it being a game of words, you sure don’t seem to enjoy when people use those words to strategize and think out loud, Meeko. Your thesis doesn’t seem to be ‘only Scum would do that’ maybe ‘only Scum can possibly benefit from that’ to which I can’t disagree more.

If you are vanilla town with no switch as you imply, you are setting a really bad example of how to have fun and engage with the game and do your best for your faction even if you don’t have a power, which will pretty much always be the situation of most people playing at any given time.

We’re what, supposed to sit here dutifully and only comment on moderator posts or the posts of other players about moderator posts, or maybe claims or investigation results? But no…not strategy or poking holes in strategy or building/assuaging suspicions based on how and when people strategize. No, no. That might actually be a fun game to try and play and we wouldn’t want that because it somehow isn’t Meeko Mafia.

How do I respond, if my style is going to be (has been) branded something that apparently Mafia players in general don’t want? Isn’t this not your exact argument to me? I could easily argue that anything not ““Meeko Mafia”” is Cookies Mafia, and ignore it as much as you ignore mine.

Let me address one specific thing. I’ll get general afterwards. [[Im injecting this in the middle of two previously typed paragraphs. I’m not sure the best place for this immediate section.]]

“Your thesis doesn’t seem to be ‘only Scum would do that’ maybe ‘only Scum can possibly benefit from that’ to which I can’t disagree more.”

Where is your proof?

No. I mean, why can’t I assume that any plan presented by those who have more power than me [And let’s be clear, All players that aren’t vanilla town, have more power than vanilla town. Either explicit personal powers [Cop, Doctor, JOAT, etc] given by role Pm, or by virtue, in general, of having communications off board [Scum] or confirmation of role [Mason]

Shouldn’t I be paranoid? … Ok, at once, a joke, and a line to be quoted immediately in the spoiler thread, if not haunt me for the rest of my playing career.
Seriously… Paranoia for vanilla town is beneficial.
I put space around this line for impact. Perhaps, for less is more.

I’m not sure healthy is a word to use here… But if you want me to play more … That lubricant [My kingdom for a better word] of motivation will be paranoia. It will come :smack: from assuming only scum can benefit in any and all endeavors presented.
There is an assumption that non-town players hold switches. You are telling me that they are going to use switches against their own interest?

We need to find where “”“Scum wouldn’t do that.”“” And “”" ‘only Scum can possibly benefit from that’ “”" intersect.

Seriously, this gets back to … A well known country, and it’s two predominant political parties. We are arguing now over … In a manner of speaking the “Right” response. Namely, that I am the one being a hypocrite. And no one ever levels that they are projecting.

That Mafia Freedom essentially means you will play Mafia by my rules, are not at all. Only… In the same manner of speaking, I’m Left out.

It leads to thinking that totally shorts my brain out.

All Mafia Players are equal, just some are more equal than others.

Cookies Why do all of the games go to claiming? [And again, I’m including “I have a switch” as a claim] What possible fun is claiming? Do you appreciate my concern here, that there is no game here, there is no “play” here?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Meeks, you just seem more paranoid that people aren’t playing by a similar set of principles regardless of alignment than holding a healthy amount of vanilla townie skepticism.

[sinjin]

I am back and reading but gee whiz there is a lot to go thru.

I am still suspicious of Toejam. But won’t vote til I slog thru this days posts.

[paulwhoisaghost]

@Lakai

It looks like Brewha got in trouble with the lie and then Crys75 comes in and claims with some odd reasoning to save Brewha. She says that she can use her investigative power to show that Brewha is in her cult and therefore not a threat. But her investigative power only reveals if Brewha is in the cult or not. If Brewha is not in the cult then the investigation will tell us nothing.

Why try and claim to save Brewha by saying you are cultist and you think Brewha is a cultist too, but you have no evidence Brewha is a cultist? Unless I am missing something else that explains why Crys claimed.

And Brewha’s lie seems scummy to me because it was explained as a mistake. I would imagine that if a town person lies about something, it would be a lie motivated to help the town. Like to withhold information that would hurt town if scum found out. Brewha doesn’t say he lied to protect town and that makes the lie more scummy to me.

Right now I’m leaning on Brewha being scum and Crys doing a bad job to protect Brewha because they are both scum. The downside to this theory is that Crys just got herself and Brewha in trouble for almost no reason with the claim. I’m conflicted because Crys claimed to help Brewha but her claiming did nothing to protect Brewha and I’m surprised she would think that her claim would help.

Either way, I think the case against Brewha and Crys is the best one for Day Two and I will vote for Brewha because I did not like the explanation for the lie.

Vote Brewha.

The way I interpreted events was that Brewha was the lynch leader and had admitted to lying. If I was a cultists and saw the situation brewha was in I would have to consider whether or not there was potential for them to also be a cultist before casting a vote for them. With that extra layer of WiFoM, I could easily be misleading by my gut into thinking there’s a good chance I’m about to watch a teammate get lynched. And if there are really only 5, in a game this size it would not surprise me if more than a few cultists are killed without the killer knowing they are cultists.

I can see why Crys would take a leap here… at best they find a teammate and save them from the lynch… at worst they’ve outed themselves and have to convince everyone they really aren’t a threat but they also let the other cultists know that they can trust Crys.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[Crys75]

@BillMC

The bodyguard is a mafia role - by turning off the ability of the mafia to protect someone - you think you saved a townie?

Did you actually read the role description of the scum you are claiming that your switch controls?? So you stop one mafia protecting another mafia? Turning off the bodyguard power saves the bodyguard.

The bodyguard and beta wolf protections seem somewhat pointless roles - not as if they are going to sacrifice themselves for a townie.

So I don’t see how you flipping your claimed switch would save town.

well it could save town some trouble at least. If he was bodyguarding the guy that can reset all the switches, and he can’t then reset them it may not work and then the switches can’t be reset for all the other nice powers floating around out there.