I don’t want to lynch sachertorte Today if he’s telling the truth. And the only easy way to figure out if he’s telling the truth is to get a simple answer to the question of whether or not amrussell was a Freemason. And since sachertorte is not responding to repeated questioning, the only way to get a response is apparently to vote. Which will be followed by an unvote if it becomes apparent that he was correct (AKA if no Freemasons come forward to refute his answer). So I’m throwing a big fat FOS at anyone who keeps confusing the issue by repeating the strawman that we don’t want to lynch sachertorte today. Nobody wants to lynch him…unless he’s lying.
That may be apparent to you, but I’m not a mind reader. I can only go by what you post, which was this:
Couple things about this. First, several people have thrown out possibilities why sach might not want to reveal amrussell’s Role (see posts 578, 612, 614, and 616, for example), so to say that there is no reason is…wrong? Indicates that you didn’t read closely? I don’t know. Now, you may disagree with those reasons, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Second, you’re pretty much challenging him in that last line that if he doesn’t reveal amrussell’s Role, then he is a liar (and thus scum). That doesn’t sound like a “pressure” vote to me (although I suppose that’s a matter of interpretation).
The difference here is that my pressure votes on lurkers are clearly stated as such, and no one has to fear a lynch if they just post a little. Your post above essentially said “reveal amrussell’s role or you are a liar.” Very different, IMO. I don’t see the inconsistency that bothers you, but your mileage obviously varies. 
Arg, simulpost. My post above was composed before reading this, which is relevant to some of what I was talking about.
I can think of a few people who would want to lynch him today if he’s telling the truth. Wolves, Cabalists, and Undead. There may be good reasons why he is holding back information, and yep, he could be lying. I think the town can afford to wait until more information is revealed before pursuing a **Sachertorte ** lynch. He is going to have to give us the info on ALL of the dead and be right about ALL of them. How is waiting a little while a bad thing? I do see the point about the Freemasons being able to confirm, but again, maybe there is a reason we aren’t seeing that holding the info is good for the town.
It has crossed my mind that the Coroner is one of the roles not used in the game. **Pleonast ** made the slow reveal a big part of the game dynamic, and to put in a player that can circumvent the system like that…well, I don’t think it would be something I would do as a Moderator of this game. However, I am willing to wait until **Sachertorte ** is wrong before lynching him, because if he IS a real Coroner, then his information is extremely helpful and we need to keep him around.
sachertorte seems to be in an awkward position. I’m not sure if he’s not posting because he wants to preserve the info or if he’s not posting because he doesn’t actually know.
If he’s write about OaoW, though, I’m going to have a hard time wanting to lynch him. Assuming he stays safe till then.
We’re not going to get Role information from Pleonast until the end of Day 3, so I don’t see the purpose of pressuring sach for that information now. I do agree that he should reveal it before then, but I think that we can handle that Day 3.
On the other hand, if he’s forced to give the info now he wouldn’t be able to use role claims today to come up with a better guess at amr’s role. Cough it up, sach.
Unvote Idle
Vote sach
sach said that the alignment for One and Only Wanderer was Cabal. A Cabalist’s role isn’t more specific than that, so if at dusk, OaoW is said to be Cabalist, then we can’t really test any more specifically–without waiting even longer.
Well, we’ve got three players who have yet to post anything* toDay, with less than 24 hours to go: Hal Briston, Blaster Master, MadtheSwine. I noticed Hal posting in other threads as recently as 40 minutes ago, so he’s not AFK. Don’t know about the others. If you don’t have a better target, perhaps you want to put some pressure on one of them. Just a suggestion, take it or leave it.
- MtS posted one fluff post with no content.
I have taken note their absence. It’s not like Blaster Master to not post, but I know he posts in spurts when time allows. He hasn’t posted in the Firefly game recently either. **MadTheSwine ** I expect this from. He doesn’t give much analysis when he does post either. Hal Briston just got back from a camping trip. I’m OK with putting a little pressure on either **Hal ** or Mad, so for now, I will:
Vote Hal Briston
Get in here and start talking folks!
OK,
My thoughts on today and those people who have looked scummy.
- DiggitCamara. His slip concerning half the town roles.
- Idle Thoughts: for continually going after sachertorte to reveal amrussell’s role.
- MHaye: If **OAOW ** is Cabal, IMHO you look most likely to be a Cabal member from the interactions on Day 1. This will have to wait until **OAOW ** is confirmed.
- sachertorte: For not revealing why he is not revealing everything and also looking back at your roleclaim, you said you could tell the Alignment of the lynch. Is this a slip, surely you meant role?
I would really like to hear from MadTheSwine, Hal Briston and **Blaster Master ** as well, because otherwise it is very hard to get a read on them.
From those above, **Idle Thoughts ** is looking scummiest to me and not really listening to other’s arguments. Persistance is admirable but not when it looks to be to the scum’s advantage. :dubious:
**vote Idle Thoughts **
I’m willing to admit there’s not a huge amount against DiggitCamara.
unvote DiggitCamara
Not sure who I’m going to vote for at this point, though…I’m reviewing the thread.
Still catching up, and I’ll have a more substantive post soon, but…
[begin hindsight]FTR, I was the Vig in M2, and yes, I killed a mason on Night zero (I can’t be blamed for that, since it was a dumb shot in the dark) and both the SK and I killed the Detective the next Night. I’m not sure it’s a good case since I was a new player.
OTOH, I think the town-guided vigging is a good example, because town logic doesn’t change a whole lot. The worst of it came when we tried to “maximize” our kills. I REALLY didn’t believe that Fern Forest was the SK, and I wanted to kill Pygmy Rugger, but I did what the town wanted out of fear of getting lynched. In the end, I got SKed that Night, Fern Forest was a townie, and Pygmy Rugger was scum.[/end 20/20 vision]
IME, it is okay to give a Vig role some suggestions, like “please kill so-and-so” Tonight, but we shouldn’t draw any conclusions based on whether that individual does or does not live.
For instance, if that person doesn’t die, and there is a Vig, maybe he was blocked, maybe he wasn’t as sure as the rest of us, maybe he had a better bead. If he does, maybe some scum is setting up for a false claim later.
IMO, it is seldom a good idea to leave scum alive, especially in a game setup like this where that scum could potentially be a vampire and result in additional deaths. Remember, this IS a game of information, and reducing deaths extends the game which improves our information and, thus, improves our chances of winning.
However, a vig may want to consider stepping in if OAOW is not a cabal, so we can get him out of the way and gain more information tomorrow, otherwise, I don’t have any recommendations for him at this time.
As for what the plan, I think it isn’t a very good one, but I think it’s difficult to say with any certainty whether the motivation is that Rysto is a misguided townie or a disingenuous scumbag, because a difference in strategy is not necessarily a difference in alignment… but, this is enough to make him someone worth keeping an eye on.
FTR, since there was questioning about where I was this weekend…
Word to the wise, don’t eat cream cheese on October 6th that expired on September 1st, or your weekend will be equally…ahem…unpleasant.
I thought most lists would pretty much shape up this way based on my own perceptions, plus perhaps Drain Bead for opportunistic voting. However, I’m not really convinced by most of these “nominees”.
First of all, Idle. While I agree that pushing so hard to get roles revealed seems odd, I also find it difficult to believe that scum would stick their neck out so far and so fast. Maybe Idle knows more than I do, or something. But, I’ve always seen scum to play their cards a little closter to the vest. So, I’m not really convinced.
Agreed on Sach and MHaye: Sach I think we should leave and wait for Dusk, as would your nomination for MHaye as a possible Cabalist.
In the end I haven’t seen a lot of new information today, but, I think the best recourse is DiggitCamera. At least in his case we’re playing the odds since we’ve all-but-confirmed Digg out of a number of townie roles. This is really stronger than any of the arguments I’ve seen so far today.
vote DiggitCamara
Okay, now for some thoughts on sachetorte. It is 100% NOT in our favor to lynch him today, because we can’t have any definite information about him until we can compare his claim against the actual results. Thus, I’m suspicious of people voting for him (here’s looking at Drain Bead).
Further, as several have pointed out, there is zero downside AFAICT to giving a firm role for Fretful Porpentine if he’s telling the truth because it helps us be a little more sure about his claim, and since no one in their right might would ever openly claim Wolf (with the POSSIBLE exception of MAYBE some obscure end-game scenarios that I’m not even willing to spend time to determine if they exist). Thus, unless you can provide a good reason not to, if you do not provide the actual role and not just the alignment prior to the end of Today, you WILL be receiving my vote without prejudice tomorrow because that is distinctly anti-town behavior and it has only anti-town motivation.
OTOH, giving the role of amrussel is a fairly useless point. If amrussel was telling the truth, then if sachetorte is scum, he would have assumed that and probably said it to make his claim look more confirmed. The coroner would have known this as well, so saying “he’s a mason” gives us no way to distinguish the two. OTOH, if he’s not, there’s no way anyone other than the coroner could have guessed that, ESPECIALLY since claiming that would practically be suicide by any other faction. However, if sachetorte IS the coroner, by specifically NOT giving us that information, he leaves open possibilities to the scum that he would close otherwise. IOW, there’s zero benefit to giving us his role, and a potential for a small benefit by not giving it. So I’d actually prefer that he doesn’t give use amrussel’s role at this time (though, this will likely be different when other pro-town roles die that are less confirmable).
Further, which is one point I don’t think anyone has hit on, there is NO way to confirm the coroner, we can only become more sure. It is entirely possible, and actually, not too difficult statistically speaking to correctly guess alignments for a Day or Two which is EXACTLY why he should be giving as much narrowing information as possible that doesn’t help the scum.
Now, what I find interesting is Idle Thoughts’ discussion about sachetorte possibly being cabal to explain his luck. This doesn’t make sense to me, because he seems to ignore the possibility of him being a Wolf who could predict the roles with at least equal likelihood. Plus, consider that OAOW is either Vig or scum, his best chance of guessing his role lies with guessing he’s cabal because, if they exist, there’s probably about 2-3 of them, and they all have identical roles AFAICT from the rules. Thus, he’d have a 2-3x better chance of being correct at guessing that than if he’d guessed the other scum faction of which sachetorte is not (since my guess at the undead at this point is one necro, one vamp and the wolves are probably alpha, omega, regular…MAYBE 2 regulars).
Either way, I think if sachetorte and** Idle Thoughts ** are both scum, they’re probably not on the same side, and I don’t like Idle Thoughts’ train of thought here at all.
My top two suspects at this point are Idle Thoughts and Drain Bead in that order, because I also found Idle’s objections to the 24-hour plan questionable and poorly motivated. And I fully expect a good explanation from sachetorte ASAP.
Vote Idle Thoughts
Revealing if he is a freemason, means that we know for certain there are another 1+ freemasons out there, so the scum will not claim it. If he reveals he is not a freemason, then it puts it back in the realms of possibility for a scum roleclaim.
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But if there is a scummy roleclaiming Freemason when all of them still exist, I doubt they’ll last very long. I think Freemason is the worst thing to claim if one is scum because there’s always going to be others who know you are lying and the votes will probably go in their favor.
I don’t see how knowing or not knowing will stop one from claiming that if they wanted to or anything else. Really, there could be more than one role of anything in this game, and nobody knows what IS in this game, so why would scum be so intent on claiming Freemason?
It doesn’t make sense.
It’s not. Read what I put above. It still has flaws that all equate to: It doesn’t really MATTER if he gives that info out. Him refusing to do so makes me suspcious of him.
You still don’t seem to be getting it (or you’re just being deliberately obtues). I’m trying to think it’s the former.
Okay, let’s say amrussell is Town. Sach said he was Town, right? So when/if Pleonast says “amrussell is Town”, are you saying that will “verify” or “confirm” that sach is the Coroner? Because that’s what it seems like you and others are saying.
But sach could easily be a Cabalist who just happened to believe or think amrussell was/is telling the truth and that he is Town. Therefore he says “Oh, he’s Town” and nothing more and if/when he’s right, he’s confirmed because he got one right? Hogwash. GET THE ROLE right and I will be MOSTLY convinced. Is that not what the Coroner role is for?
I don’t know why he might. So what do YOU know that I don’t know? So what if amrussell was the/a Witchdoctor? Whether sach says it now or we see it when/if amr comes back to life, it makes no difference. We’ll know he is anyway and he’ll be returning with the name of his killer if I read the rules right. HOWEVER right NOW we can find out if sach is lying or not by having him say if amr was a Freemason or not.
HazelNutCoffee, you’re voting for me yet you never answered any questions I asked about the subject?
I do not want to lynch him. Where have I said that? I’m wondering why he’s holding back on info that could verify him for sure. It’s either because he doesn’t know the roles…or…well, I don’t know of any other reason! So until someone can tell me, specifically, I can only assume it’s the first.
Snipped.
How?
I agree wholeheartedly.
Unvote Rysto
Vote Sachertorte
I will unvote immediatly after I hear if amr was a Freemason or not.
Snipped.
How? You have yet to supply a reason. How about you tell me a reason to keep the info back? Please note: “It could give info to the scum” doesn’t work because WHAT info does it give to scum, exactly?
Am I being whooshed here? If sach is telling the truth (and can prove it by giving roles), what’s to stop him from having some sort of protection at Night from someone?
And there you go again saying “there may be reasons”. What reasons?
What info? He could give info right now that would verify him. What info are you looking for? What, that arm is, indeed, Town? And you’ll take that as proof? Anyone could guess that.
How is it to scums advantage? Is there a reason you keep ignoring that question? Do you not have an answer for it?
I hear other’s just fine. None of them have answered my question. Neither have you. Everyone is talking about “reasons” and “advantages”, yet nobody has said anything of what these are and I can’t think of or see of any. There aren’t any. If there are, what are they?
Neither am I. But there IS nothing to compare against results yet.
sach said amr is Town and OAOW is Cabal and Fretful is a Wolf.
So, when/if it’s revealed that amr is Town and OAOW is Cabal and Fretful is a Wolf, will he be confirmed and verified in your eyes? If so, why? If not, what will do it?
OTOH, giving the role of amrussel is a fairly useless point. If amrussel was telling the truth, then if sachetorte is scum, he would have assumed that and probably said it to make his claim look more confirmed. The coroner would have known this as well, so saying “he’s a mason” gives us no way to distinguish the two.
[/quote]
Distinguish what two? I’ve read this whole paragraph over and over and it makes no sense to me.
Guessed what? That amr is Town? Seems like a likely guess, even if one is Wolf or Cabal. That amr is a Freemason or not? He has yet to do that.
I ask for the million time:
How would saying if he was a Freemason or not be helping scum in any way?
Nobody seems to have an answer for this.
Are you serious Idle? You don’t know how we find out if he’s lying or not? If he’s not the Coroner, he can *only guess correctly * or he gets lynched. How long can a lying Coroner keep that up? Or he gets lunched or munched and he is revealed in death.
I can see this a few ways:
- **Sachertorte ** is a real Coroner and all of his info will be correct.
- **Sachertorte ** is a Cabalist and knows that **OAOW ** was a Cabalist. His first reveal by **Pleonast ** will be correct. He would not know **amrussell ** or **Fretful Porpentines ** alignments/roles and therefore may be wrong about either at the next reveal.
- **Sachertorte ** is a Wolf and knows that **Fretful Porpentine ** was a wolf, but is taking his chances on **OAOW ** as a Cabalist. Since **OAOW’s ** alignment will be revealed before the other two, this is a big chance to take.
- **Sachertorte ** is a Vampire and doesn’t know any of the alignments and claimed to stay in the game long enough for a couple additional night kills.
If either 3 or 4 are true, he will screw up sooner rather than later. If 2 is true, then he may stand a chance of being right on all counts this round, but it will be harder to pin down subsequent victim’s alignments. If 1 is true, then Yay! His information will help other roles know what they need to do.
??? How is having night protection going to keep him from being lynched?