I just want to be super-clear: you imply that Sunny Daze et al aren’t real adults, you talk about how you tell sexist jokes, you sneer at her about how she should go to a country with a devastating patriarchy–and that’s all leading up to your lecturing her about what real feminists do?
Someone who tells me that vaccinations cause autism and quotes Dr. Wakefield and sneers at me about how my own kids are probably gonna be autistic better fucking well not lecture me about the scientific method.
This thread had zero chance of not being immediately ruined by a bunch of assholes like Scump and Tripe but I thank Sunny for trying. It needed to be said even if the people who need to hear it never listen.
I LOVE YOU SO MUCH! Please don’t ever leave. But if you can’t take the vitriol, please let me know through PM. It’s not your responsibility. I appreciate what you have done.
Serendipitously the Telegraph has published a piece entitled ‘Six things that women are allowed to do but men are not’ (may be paywalled) and the top one is female objectification of men
There’s much more at the link.
Further, I don’t recall the OP - or anyone else - complaining when there have been multiple threads about male sexual miscreants - alleged or otherwise.
Unfortunately, at least the way I read it, given the actual small fraction of potentially “male-centric” threads that are on any of the front pages at any one time, this is a call against diversity not for it, against diversity of content anyway.
Let me ask it this way: is there any fraction of threads on the the front pages of these boards that are perceived to be “male-centric” that would be considered an acceptable number that would not be “driving off” some posters? What fraction is that? One out of ten? One out of twenty? One out of fifty?
Would there be some fraction of “female-centric” threads that would be considered too many? A different number?
White-centric? (I dunno, your favorite cream soda?) Black-centric? Jewish-centric? Evangelical-centric?
Or is having some diversity in thread centrism, driven by the interests of those who post and who reply, a feature not a bug, even if some are not interested in some discussions?
This is, to be clear different than jerky behavior in any of these or other threads, which is already a stated norm to not tolerate here other than in The Pit. Hate speech, threadshitting with “pictures please” when a female-centric thread discusses something breast related, etc. - all should already be covered under that. But discussing something that not everyone else may be interested in, expressing opinions that others disagree with, is not in and of itself being a jerk.
Skald is black, but he’s a man. And then there was also OMG a Black Conservative but he was (a) a man, and (b) not of the One True Faith.
BTW I picked Nzinga at random from your list and her last activity was a few days ago and she last posted in April. MeanOldLady also posted just last week.
Are we really sure that this thread isn’t just saying, “A man’s place is in the wrong”?
When someone suggest reexamining posting behavior for the sake of improving board environment, “If you don’t like it you can push off” hardly qualifies as a pro tip.
Yeah, on second thought, just . . . forget it.
Have fun playing with your tip, Pro.
You might say it’s taking longer than we expected.
That’s a little disheartening.
Damn! Is that original? ‘Cause it’s brilliant.
That needs to be put on a plaque.
Quite so.
I dunno if I’ve ever said this, but you’re one of my favorite posters, even on the occasion that we disagree: your perspective on a variety of matters, from science to relationships (or the lack thereof) to race is pretty interesting and thought-provoking. I hope the board remains one you want to hang around.
QFT.
[del]Long-winded essay supporting the OP[/del]Unnecessary mansplainin’ dropped in favor of just saying I’ll try to do better in the future.
As much as I want your voice, it belongs to you. You get to choose. I hope you choose to stay------I hope you let me know if you leave. I don’t want to live in an on-line world without you. I’d manage reality somehow.
You have enriched my world.
Monstro, as much as I want your voice, it belongs to you. You get to choose. I hope you choose to stay------I hope you let me know if you leave. I don’t want to live in an on-line world without you. I’d manage reality somehow.
You have enriched my world.
---------------for clarity and because SDMB has the worst interface-------I tried. Really I Tried.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, so I won’t.
I’ll confess to a) participating in a few threads of the “Betty vs. Veronica” ilk, and b) announcing my habitual crushes on women in the arts and media to an uncaring world, but I hope I haven’t done anything significant to foster a negative atmosphere for women here. Actually, I’d be somewhat gobsmacked if anyone, male or female, remembered much of anything in particular I’ve ever written here.
I appreciate the OPs effort. She makes a really valid point. And while I don’t have a magic solution, I have to believe openly raising the issue before both posters and mods is the right first path.
And a couple or few posters saying, ‘Hmmm. I hadn’t noticed but think I can do better, or at least be more aware.’, is proof this thread was a good idea. Some posters will always remain unreachable, of course, and it’s time wasted fighting with those who can’t catch the nuance of what is being addressed, in my opinion.
The path this thread has taken pretty clearly illustrates the issue, in my opinion.
I see mods, all the time, exercise sufficient tact to say, ‘Dial that back.’, in regards to all sorts of thread derailments. I think it’s telling we’ve never seen one over this. But I can remember a time when ‘How you doing…’, and titty jokes could be inserted in any thread without raising an eyebrow. But that changed because women spoke up. So, for me, hope spring eternal. Perhaps the mods will take under advisement the issue so politely raised here and exercise their, ‘That’s not appropriate to this thread.’ muscles a little in this respect.
I don’t think much more, like new rules, is actually required.
I appreciate the kind words. But I am not intending on leaving. There have been times when I have entertained the thought, though.
I really don’t know what the solution is. I just don’t think telling posters to skip over content they don’t like is a satisying response if the goal here to maintain a diverse, interesting set of posters.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
I’m probably going to bungle this, but bear with me. It’s hard to explain how white-male centric this board is because it’s not a matter of individual threads. It’s about tone and expected audience. When people --including me–write on this board, our hypothetical audience is white and male and middle class. We explain things middle class white males would need explained, and don’t bother to explain things white middle class males would already know. If we want our posts to be read and responded to, we try to be valid and interesting to middle class white males. This literally pervades every post and it’s hard to descibe, in a way that a color blind person can’t explain how everything in the world is aimed at normal color vision, or a lefty explain how pervasively right-handed everything in society is. Middle class white male is normal, everything else is exotic and has to explain itself, justify itself.
This isn’t just a SDMB problem, obviously: it’s everywhere, and I don’t know how to fix it. But it’s part of the reason why what might appear to be a slight drift toward an even more male-centric PoV causes such a strong reaction–it’s already a pain in the ass to deal with this constant slant, this constant need to write for a male reader, to understand as you read that what you are reading was intended for a male reader. It’s not a huge deal in most threads, but it’s a real deal in almost every thread. I think that’s why the bra threads were such a big deal: it added insult to injury that even in a bra-fitting thread, the schema had to be male.
I think the best thing that can happen from this is just heightened awareness of how pervasive this is.
I had to go look and see which thread you meant (hooters) - it was, sure enough, one I glanced at and thought “well, that will be full of assholes” and then didn’t read.
so team MRA are always saying if we don’t like certain things, don’t read them and we are absolutely doing that.
Ladeez un Gennelmenn !: I Present, For Your Delectation - The Fabulous Flying Whataboutism!
Also behind the OP 100%.
I do think one challenge here (and in society in general perhaps) is that it doesn’t take “most” men or “most” posts to be problematic to create a hostile environment. All it takes is one coworker to make your days miserable if there is no recourse.
Maybe the SDMB is swarming with “male-centric” behavior (which is a very politic way to put it), but really, it only takes a little bit, applied regularly and consistently, to make a place feel unwelcoming to those who are ultimately the objects in those kinds of conversations.
The struggle is, without enacting strict and arbitrary rules, how do we reduce or discourage that kind of conversation? I’d echo elbows’s post above mine in that regard. However, I have strong doubts that just bringing the issue up as a topic of conversation and calling it out is going to cause the, say, 5% (made up number) of active posters who don’t see their behavior as problematic to actually change or stop.
But also, one can expect that a thread like this would attract a high percentage of people who are outraged by the very concept that they might be responsible for the pwecious feewings of a few women and neutered men. Don’t take resistance to change from the very people who you want to change the most as evidence that no one is listening, or that obviously the board hates women. If all of the ‘male-centered’ behaviour comes to an end, the place you can expect it to rear its loud and obnoxious head, even at the end, is in a thread calling it out.
Hate speech? You’re blinded by your misogynist ranting. I had no idea you were so shallow. Anyway, have a nice life.