“Now updated to four dead.”
in Ohio?
It’s in the title. This event occurred in Grand Blanc, Michigan.
Trump says Mormons a real Christians!
I don’t care if this attacker targeted Mormons, Buddhists, Unitarians, pagans, etc. this has got to stop. No, I don’t have any solutions of my own to offer.
As for the almost-immediate response, most likely the officers were just on routine patrol, and this came in. It reminded me of one of those old A&E shows, where a serial killer was exposed in this manner: “It’s the nature of police work; you’re out writing parking tickets, and this guy calls in and says that his dog brought a head home, and it’s out in his front yard.”
No idea on the Southern Baptists, but there is an argument to be made that Mormonism is nothing but a pile of what at least the Western Church would consider very old heresies and can never be in communion with really any other version of Christianity.
Anyway, I doubt this is anything other than some asshole with a grudge and a target.
Hartman: Do any of you people know who Charles Whitman was? None of you dumbasses knows? [Cowboy raises his hand] Private Cowboy?
Cowboy: [stands up] Sir, he was that guy who shot all those people from that tower in Austin, Texas, sir!
Hartman: That’s affirmative. Charles Whitman killed 12 people from a 28-story observation tower at the University of Texas, from distances of up to 400 yards. Anybody know who Lee Harvey Oswald was? [all recruits raise their hands] Private Snowball?
Snowball: [stands up] Sir, he shot Kennedy, sir!
Hartman: That’s right. And do you know how far away he was?
Snowball: Sir, it was pretty far, from that book suppository building, sir! [the recruits laugh]
Hartman: All right, knock it off. 250 feet. [Snowball sits down] He was 250 feet away and shooting at a moving target. Oswald got off three rounds with an old Italian bolt-action rifle in only six seconds and scored two hits, including a headshot. Do any of you people know where these individuals learned how to shoot? [Joker raises hand] Private Joker?
Joker: [stands up] Sir, in the Marines, sir!
Hartman: In the Marines! Outstanding! Those individuals showed what one motivated Marine and his rifle can do! And before you ladies leave my island, you will all be able to do the same thing!
Marines come in for abuse because they’re trained riflemen, but the part their indoctrination plays in their behavior is an unfair slam. There have been horrible crimes committed by Air Force both veterans (BTK) and active duty (the Hi-fi Murders inspired by the Dirty Harry movie where a pimp forces Drano down a prostitute’s throat), but nobody claims the USAF is a monster factory.
A religion is a cult that’s grown to be socially acceptable and respectable.
My opinion is that there are some very “culty” things about Mormonism, but the mainstream church aren’t too weird, at least in public. (The temple stuff strikes me as bizarre, but no more so than many other religions.) So yes, some people call Mormonism a cult.
In general, Mormons consider themselves Christians but many Christians don’t think Mormons are Christian. Don’t really feel like getting into the whys and wherefores here, but they are definitely further from Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant sects than any of those three large groups are different from each other.
Agreed.
Ah. Whoosh! Thanks for fighting my ignorance.
Mormons reject the Nicene Creed and categorize God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as individual and separate beings, a belief which seems to be super heretical to Christianity at large. Heretical enough for someone to attack a Mormon church on Sunday? Probably not but you never know, people have certainly died for less in the past when it comes to religious differences.
There’s also that whole thing about Jesus making a trip to North America and American Indians originating in Israel. Mormons also considered dark skin to be a literal curse from God although I am reading now that they disavowed this belief… as of 2013.
(lapsed Mormon here, converted when I was a teenager, left when a Bishop got a little too curious about things I did not want to discuss with him.)
I did a quick search for where the stake center is and the address comes back as the same chapel at which this occurred. A stake for the LDS is akin to a diocese for some other denominations.
I just saw something online saying the shooter was married and had a child.
No doubt all of the information coming to light now is still fuzzy at best.
I know Full Metal Jacket isn’t a documentary but this is what makes me think the shooting was targeted at a specific person rather than being random violence directed at a convenient crowd. The casualty count here is pretty low for someone who had speed, surprise and violence of action on his side. Every Marine is a rifleman and will generally hit what they aim at. If the motivation was some variant of “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore” I’d expect dozens of casualties.
These three pastors in my family discussed today how they plan to ask for more security cameras and guards at their churches. The expense for that unfortunately will be very costly. Man that’s going to be the norm in so many places.
Oh, but GUNS!!
Yes, I know I will be moderated for this in a MPSIMS thread, but fuckit.
You want less shootings/violent crimes/random nutjobs taking out schoolkids?
GET RID OF YOUR FUCKING GUNS.
Simple 
It has been the norm for non-Christians for a very long time. The Jewish synagogues and community center in my area have bullet resistant windows, traffic bollards, security cameras, and that’s just the security you can see. Heck yes, that’s costly. On top of that, we hire extra, visible security for major holidays and community events.
Sorry that you’re joining the “club”, but most folks have been cruising through life as members of the comfortable majority while for some of us thinking about security is like having a cup of coffee - ubiquitous, sometimes bitter, so frequent as to be somewhat ritualized, and an expense added to our budgets that can be surprisingly high.
In terms more familiar to me, would it be right to say that Mormons are to Christians as Druze are to Muslims?
Yeah, that’s actually a pretty good analogy.
Although with less violence. The Mormons only fought one or two battles that involved bloodshed, and nowadays they try to ignore that part of their early history. And they were shooting at the US Army, not other Christian denominations.
>cough<
1838 Mormon War - 22 Mormons dead vs 1 non-Mormon dead, inter-American violence
1845 Mormon War in Illinois - Mormons vs. non-Mormon Americans. 10 dead on the Mormon side and followed by them moving to Utah.
1859 Battle Creek Massacre - Mormons vs. Natives. At least 4 dead Natives.
1850 Provo River Massacre - Mormons vs. Natives, Native men who surrendered were summarily executed. Somewhere between 40 and 100 Natives killed.
1851 William McBride Massacre - Mormons vs. Natives, 10 killed Natives.
1852 Porter Rockwell Massacre - Mormons vs. Natives, at least 4 Natives killed.
1853 Walker War - Mormons vs. Natives, at least 12 Natives killed.
1853 Nephi Massacre - Mormons vs. Natives. 7 Goshute men were killed in retaliation for the deaths of 4 Mormons at the hands of the Utes. This is like executing 7 Portuguese for murders committed by Spaniards.
1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre - Mormons vs White/American people. Around 120 dead.
1857 Aiken Massacre - Mormons vs. Californians. 5 dead Californians
1857 Utah War - Actually, NOT strictly speaking Mormon violence or violence involving Mormons. Apparently some American troops entered Utah due to reports of a Mormon rebellion and wound up killing non-Mormon civilians. Included to point out that the Mormons weren’t the only folks bumbling around Utah at the time killing people for no damn good reason. Which doesn’t make any of it OK, just demonstrates that Utah in the latter half of the 19th Century was not a safe place.
1862 Morrisite War - Mormons vs. Other Mormons. Two sects of the LDS fought each other, 11 dead total.
1865-1872 Black Hawk War - Mormons vs. Natives. By the end about 140 dead Natives to around 40 dead Mormons.
1866 Circleville Massacre - Mormons vs. Natives. 30 dead Natives.
1884 Cane Creek Massacre - Mormons vs Non-Mormon Americans. Took place in Tennessee, a mob attacked Mormons at worship, 4 dead Mormons 1 dead attacker.
Now, granted, in some instances it was a mob against a few Mormons, but some of the other ones were definitely a large group of Mormons killing other people. Quite a few were Mormons killing Natives after the Mormons moved to Utah.
Things do seem to have settled down after Utah was admitted to the US, and after most of the Natives were either killed off or displaced. From the 20th Century onward sure, a lot less violence between Mormons and others. But let’s not white wash that there was plenty of blood in the past, not just “one or two”, and not just battles but some outright murder when dozens or scores of women and children were butchered. The Mormons got very good at sneaking up on settlements or encampments and either capturing or slaughtering, or capturing AND slaughtering, entire families. Subsequently, they’ve gotten very good at either minimizing or white-washing or both in this bloody past.
None of which makes the recent attack on worshipping LDS members yesterday in any way justified - it’s not. In fact, I very strong suspect that what happened nearly 150 years ago has no bearing on yesterday’s attacks. That one springs from current tensions in our society that some take as permission to commit lethal violence upon their fellow citizens.