March 17: the overshadowed-by-covid-19 primaries (FL,IL,OH,AZ)

No. I’m trying to show you what you argue like. Consider:

followed by:

Just imagine for a second that what I think is based on what you actually do, not an apparent personal dislike.

I’ve considered it, and your criticism of the way I argue is not accurate. It’s possible for decent and smart people to disagree on what’s “rational” and what counts as “analysis”.

But why can’t you just start a Pit thread about me if you’re so interested in criticizing the way I post? If you feel so strongly, you must have lots of posts about me that you think would serve as evidence. Why is it so important that you focus on your problems with the way I post in this thread?

No. I just gave a crystal clear example of my criticism and it doesn’t even get a response from you. I’m not wasting my time on a Pit thread. The next time you want to pretend my objections are based on an apparent personal dislike, that’s when you can start one yourself.

It wasn’t “crystal clear”. As far as I can tell, you don’t like that I don’t feel terribly strongly, and thus sometimes I acknowledge that others’ arguments are good ones. Why isn’t it okay for me to take the fact that my prior position was at least partially disproved as evidence that my position isn’t terribly strong, and thus acknowledge that there are good arguments against it? I think there are Bernie positions that are more popular than some of Biden’s positions, based on some polling I’ve seen. But it is indeed a good argument against this that Bernie has been losing at the polls. Perhaps there are some positions that fit, and maybe those are the ones Biden has been shifting on.

Recognizing the weaknesses in my own position seems like pretty “rational analysis” to me, but apparently your mileage varies.

I still can’t tell what it is you don’t like, if it’s not this. Sometimes I post my opinion, even if it’s not a terribly strong opinion. Sometimes I recognize good arguments against my own opinion, and re-evaluate. Is that your objection? If so, why?

Like I said, if you think this is personal then start a Pit thread. I’m just complaining that you don’t even attempt to defend your hunches with facts.

I welcome criticism, by the way. That’s the best way to improve. But I can’t figure out your criticism, so far. It doesn’t make sense to me.

Ha! They say imitation is the best form of flattery… I’m flattered! :wink:

When I feel strongly, I do. My strong hunch about enthusiasm was based on the facts of Bernie’s fundraising and volunteering success. It looks like it was wrong, but those were the facts it was based on.

My less strong hunch about the best strategy to win the general is based on a handful of things, including some facts (like polling I remember on issues), but also anecdotal facts based on conversations and interactions I’ve had. And also just plain feelings. But I don’t trust my own hunches as strongly as before.

And also, this is just shooting the shit. We’re just talking here. It doesn’t have to be so serious. Sometimes someone may not present things exactly in the way you like, and that’s okay.

But thank you for the discussion. I enjoy these interactions!

Ok, we can stop now.

Okay! Thanks for the criticism. Maybe one day I’ll understand it and can use it to improve!

Whether or not you agree that they are lies you have to admit that they constitute Bernie going hard negative even after the fat lady had started warming up for her aria.

I don’t think that’s even close to “hard negative”, but I understand that others feel differently. Politics is a rough sport!

Lying about Bidens stand on SocSec (and Poltifact rated Bernie “Mostly false” aka “mostly lying”)= hard negative.

His Bros spreading the rumor Joe is senile.
All Bernie can do is attack Biden.

Look at Bernies health plan- fantastic- in the original sense of the word- he might as well propose magic unicorns running around and healing everyone with their horns, since that is exactly as likely as Sanders health plan getting thru congress.

Ross Perot in 1992 gave us Bill Clinton.
Bernie Sanders in 2016 gave us Danegeld Jenius Tromp.
George Wallace and John Anderson gave us nothing.
Will 2020 give us Cthulhu? I’d prefer Biden.

Top voters. Many. Top. Voters.

Too late. The brakes have failed.

Bernie is now history, an interesting footnote. As Mark Twain said, “History doesn’t repeat itself but it rhymes.” Bernie is now up there with Ross Perot, but poorer.

Off-topic Perot story, secreted in spoiler.

My SIL was a VERY senior exec at a VERY large US financial institution. She was invited to Perot’s desolate Texas family ranch for a conference. She gazed at the bleak surroundings and asked why his family had settled there. He looked her in the eye and drawled, “Mule died.” Many have similar excuses. We lived in an Arizona-Sonora border town whose residents mainly took wrong turns to get there.

For people saying Bernie shouldn’t bow out because he’s not yet mathematically eliminated: uhhh…how many candidates historically wait until that point? We had at least a couple dozen running this cycle, and at least twenty of them dropped out (or “suspended”) before it was mathematically impossible for them to get a majority of delegates. That’s how it works. You get out when the writing’s on the wall.

Yes, it’s actually very patronizing and implicitly insulting to Bernie supporters that there is all this talk about how careful we have to be with them, to avoid spooking them. Like they are intellectually disabled or mentally ill, and have to be dealt with so very, very gingerly–unlike the supporters of any of the other candidates who ran! It’s pathetic.

Oh yeah, that’s a huge conspiracy by the godlike DNC, dontchaknow, who forced them to drop out and endorse Joe. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Come on, guys. I’ve been disagreeing with iiandyiiii but I agree with him that there’s no good in being sore winners. Chillax. We’re in a pandemic, ffs. Get some perspective.

Then your definition of hard negative is too narrow to be useful in this discussion. The issue is whether Sanders continued campaigning is going to hurt Biden in the general election.

If Sanders had proceeded with a positive but differential message, “Biden and I both want to protect our seniors but my way will be better and here is why” then that would be fine. But telling everyone that Biden wants to cut your social security is, at this point, a campaign ad for Trump. Just swap out the bit with Sanders and replace it with Trump saying that he will expand social security and you are good to go.

^^ This 1000%