I’m going to echo filmore’s suggestion to get The Sex Starved Marriage. It is worth every penny and could save your marriage. You can also go to this web site:
http://divorcebusting.com/dbsex.mv?ARTID=sexstarved and join in the message boards. I think you’ll find it worth your while.
Daddy,
Have an affair. Really. You say that you don’t have much experience outside of your marriage. I know that an affair may go against what you’ve said you been working toward with your wife. But, after this thread and the last, I wonder how much you are able to accomplish without her help. As others have mentioned, you can only change yourself.
The poster I am reading seems to be a man that is trying to work toward a solution. You crave physical intimacy, not just sex.
Go out and see if you can find that with someone else. You seem to be asking for options, this is one. Many people may disagree, especially since your family is important to you. But, I wonder how successful you will be as a husband or a father if you are unfulfilled. You don’t have to lose your family to find that answer, nor do you have to sacrifice so much of yourself in the process.
If you happen to meet someone and have some sort of intimate relationship, perhaps that might help you answer some of your questions. You’ll be able to appreciate all of the other things that your wife gives you. Or, maybe it will show you that the relationship works better when you both have independent lives.
Tomcat asked about the things she does for you that makes you happy. What would your answer be?
Perhaps having an affair goes against your convictions. Have you thought about a trial separation that would give you the freedom to explore these things? Perhaps your wife may like one, too. Just to see how she feels away from the “family dynamic.”
Anyway, you seem to be working so hard and achieving minimal results. Ultimately, I believe that we can only be responsible for our own happiness.
That’s why I posted. Think about what would truly make you happy and go for it.
ps. I meant no disrespect suggesting you have an affair or trying out a trial separation. Just adding some new options for you to consider. I hope you will not take offense.
Be well.
X~Slayer(ALE), your last post made me cry. Really.
Yes, because it’s a sad statement from someone who is clearly lonely. But also because I see nuggets of my own relationship in it. I’m afraid that one day I (or my SO to be quite frank) would say those exact same word.
Hugs.
X~slayer, I said some of Dx2’s comments raised red flags. Yours, however, while very similar in outcome, have different sources. Based on your info, I don’t see red flags. But a good sex therapist will also CONFIRM that it isn’t your problem if it isn’t. And even those red flags I got were based on someone writing something in text, when angry. Hardly a diagnosis, and I didn’t intend it to be one. Just like a weird mark on your skin isn’t a diagnosis of cancer, but worth having checked out by someone who knows what they’re talking about. I wouldn’t go to a dental surgeon to see if that mole needs a closer look. If the problem is sexual in nature, take it to someone who has experience with that.
There are probably 20 different ways to approach the situation. The book recommendation is one way, and sex therapy another, and just dumping it all another, and having an affair another, etc. It is up to Dx2 to decide what way to go. Or try them all until something works. That’s the way most of us find our way - ask around, get some landscape markers, and then work our way through. Sometimes we’ll be sent the wrong way, but it is up to us to correct and try another.
BTW, I am really glad there is SOME improvement, Dx2. And sorry that she hasn’t dealt with her issues. It would probably help if she had. But you can’t make her, so deal with you. The more healed and whole you are, the more able you will be to make a good decision, no matter how difficult the situation.
Guilty.
However, it wasn’t just the sexual type. After a while I realized that she was just a cold, wet-blanket type of person. When you’re that way, sex is just a itch that one scratches.
Sorry, I can’t give you any REAL advice but, my story is that we’ve since seperated. That’s the bad news (I guess, although I’m much happier now). The good news is that I’ve found someone who is as clingy as myself. And, while trying not to “burn out”, our sex life is like two people who just got out of prison!
Someone else said, if it’s effecting you to a point where you can’t have a happy life, drastic measures are needed. But, remember, you probably won’t be able to change her and you probably won’t be able to change yourself. It’s unfair to ask of either. You both are different, you either have to live with that or “fix it”.
Good luck.
There is some outstanding advice here that I simply cannot add. But that won’t shut me up
Prior to kids, sex was regular and very nice.
Since kids, my libido has flat lined.
Dealing with the death of my brothers and going on prozac ( which took away any thoughts of sex at all, yet I was blissfully happy.) really has frustrated my husband. Having sex whilst on prozac has made me easily think of turning tricks for cash as I have no feeling down there and orgasm is impossible. Fortunately, he is extremely patient. I know he surfs for porn during dry spells and that is ok. I’m pretty sure he takes care of his needs , and I’m fine with that.
When I am off prozac, I some times get the urge, but frankly it is always when he is at work. By the time he gets home, feh.
Alot of the problem is hormones, exhaustion and, frankly, feeling like it is something on my to-do list. I could live the rest of my life without it, I am sure and not really miss it. Yet, when we do make love, it is wonderful. Confliction is loads of fun. Other mom’s in my age and demographic have felt this way as well. We want intimacy. Husbands want sex. It is an age old battle that has only recently come out of the closet.
Men get global help with Erectile Dysfuction and women are pretty much screwed, so to speak. Yes there are some products out there, but not as BOLD as Viagara and covered by insurance, to boot. But if a woman needs help ( pretty much we all do eventually because of hormones out of whack.) we get double screwed because our meds are not covered by insurance. You don’t think we aren’t bitter about no birth control coverage and are not still holding a grudge, think again.
It doesn’t help that we are bombarded with shows like Sex in the City where beautiful, skinny hip women fuck everything that makes eye contact with them.
It doesn’t help that there are magazines out there that taught/taut(?) Turning your man into your loveslave (Cosmo) or the stories of the Nympho Bartenderess and how every female is just on-on-on sexually all the time. (Maxim)
And every email and annoying pop up spews forth bigger penis, lusty teenage sluts and hot co-eds.
We are bombarded from every angle.
We cannot escape it.
Ever so slowly we start to beleive it and then our self esteem drops down to the gutter because we do not feel sexy or hot or even luke warm a nth of the time.
We start to beleive that we need sex X amount of times and it has to be a Simutaneous Orgasm from the 12th Level of Bliss. Only in romance novels.
Life is just not like that.
So, sometimes we (the Ujests) will start out with him doing all the work, by the time I warm up and then I click into gear and we have a nice marital time. Sometimes the dog snores just as we conclude. We label her " The Russian Judge." Foreplay should really be called, Fore-humor.
Either way, you need to communicate. If everything else in your marriage is good, maybe back off for awhile and just relax. Maybe do some self celibacy too, and try for non-sex,non-foreplay intimacy.
In contusion, keep up with the therapy. She will not change until she wants to change.
Good Luck.
BTW, X~Slayer, does your wife have dissociation issues? Because when I go into dissociation loops, those are the exact reactions I get from my husband. (It is like I’m not there, even though I’m right in front of him… stop being ‘present’ for kissing, etc., etc., pretty much your whole list spot on.) Fortunately, he knows how to bring me ‘back’… and fortunately it happens less often and for shorter times the longer I’m healed. Still sucks all around, though - I stop ‘being’ and he misses me.
Might be worth looking into DDNOS info (dissociative disorder not otherwise specified). It looks like being alive, but it isn’t really living.
Strangely enough, aromatherapy has had the biggest impact on that process. I use an oil blend on my wrists that every time I smell it (move my hands past my face in any way) serves as a reminder to just be ‘here’. (Email me if you want the blend info, but what works for her might differ from what works for me.) I can really tell the difference when I’m not using it, or when (as today) my head is stuffy and I can’t smell anything. It is like instant mindfulness (Zen-style). And the more mindful I am, the better.
I will look into that hedra thank you
Zhen’ka, that would completely be a deal-breaker. I would only do that if I decided I never wanted to see her again. Because that’s what would happen.
X~Slayer(ALE), I thought I had a rough time til I read your posts. Ick. I don’t want to end up with t roommate.
As I noted I was rather pissed off when I wrote the OP. I think I exaggerated negatively the feelings we have toward one another. Bottom line though is that she’s less touchy-feely than I am. She’s more private than me. She deals with with things internally. One of the things I’ve been after her about is to talk to me about things. Just saying “no” is only rejection, but saying “no” and telling me what she’s feeling is something else. This is how she decided to start on the anti-depressants. She was feeling depressed, told me so and we discussed what we could do and she made an appointment with her doctor. And the team work felt good.
It’s still a difficult thing for us to do, talk about these things. We sat together for a little while before Ii went to be and all through my head were questions and coments I wanted to say, yet I said nothing. I felt defeated as I went to bed. I don’t understand it.
Shirley Ujest, I think that circumstances are a lot the same between us. Well, my wife and you. The combination of having the kids, the anti depressants (Effexor, BTW), and I think she started a new BC pill (the one that helps your skin?) within the past few months has wreaked havoc on her hormones and she has yet to recover, although I think that the Effexor has relaly put the kibosh on her sex drive. Last year we started therapy and for about one week we had great sex. Ahhhh, I still remember. She “caught” me surfing for porn and that stopped immediately. So I think that we can get our attitudes worked out better and maybe an anti-depressant that won’t slaughter her libido, we might be able to be more initmate.
filmore, I’m going to look for that book.
I’m having trouble organizing my thoughts on all this, so I’ll come back in a biut and read it all again.
a few things to look into:
i was on the pill once, loooong time ago by now, didn’t like had mood swings; not in the mood for sex at all.
I opted for an IUD (spiral) when I was 19. my hormonal balance hasn’t been out of whack since.
Maybe your wife can look into switching contraceptive methods? It’s cheaper then the pill, and only needs replacing once every 3 years. The only negative side effect is a bit more blood when i’ve my periods.
Maybe asking is the wrong way to go about it. She’s expecting it then, she can say no, she will say no.
Offer a massage, make her feel sensual. Do you know what her erogenous zones are?
When my BF is in the mood, and i’m a bit tired, he starts caressing my nipples; they’re very sensitive, and always get me in the mood, even if I’m dead tired.
I was in a relationship once where my then SO insisted on sex every day. If I didn’t want to, then he accused me of not loving him anylore. It really got my self esteem down, made me feel less attractive, ergo: even less in the mood for sex. Women need to feel beautiful to be in the mood. Well, I do, anyway. When I’ve put on a few pounds, I feel unattractive and in no mood for physical contact of any kind. Simply because I do not want to be confronted with my own body. Because at that time I don’t find myself sexy. It’s hard to let yourself be loved if you don’t love yourself.
If you think that there has been sexual abuse in her past, I doubt a twin counselling session is going to help.
People that have gone through smething like that usually blame themselves; they feel dirty and evil, and one of the hardest things to do is tell their SO as it hugely embarrasses them. They think their SOs’ll stop loving them. It’s a very real angst.
See if she wants to go to counselling on her own.
Sex strengthens the intimite bond you have with a person, it reaffirms the connexion you have with another person. No matter what people say: sex in a relationship is hugely important.
Why not try this:
I think the difficulty your wife has is the “violation” of her body. The fact that there’s penetration and that she’s “subjected” to it.
Not what you intend, but i’ll betcha deepo down that’s how she feels.
try and please her, only her, without penetration. Explain it to her as some sort of experiment: you’ll pamper her, with your fingers; or orally, whatever it takes. Tell her she just needs to lie there and enjoy. Gradually build in hand jobs for you. Still no violation of her body. You can instruct her how to do it. She will experience the power she has over you, your “coming” is in her hands, literally. It might perk up her sensuous feelings. She might start feeling as somebody that you desire, and not just as if she’s doing her marital duty.
Once that accomplished (and it’ll take
a few things to look into:
i was on the pill once, loooong time ago by now, didn’t like it, had mood swings; not in the mood for sex at all.
I opted for an IUD (spiral) when I was 19. My hormonal balance hasn’t been out of whack since.
Maybe your wife can look into switching contraceptive methods? It’s cheaper than the pill, and only needs replacing once every 3 years. The only negative side effect is a bit more blood when i’ve my periods.
Maybe asking is the wrong way to go about it. She’s expecting it then, she can say no, she will say no.
Offer a massage, make her feel sensual. Do you know what her erogenous zones are? Try roundabout ways of being intilate without it leading obviously to fill blown sex.
When my BF is in the mood, and i’m a bit tired, he starts caressing my nipples; they’re very sensitive, and always get me in the mood, even if I’m dead tired.
I was in a relationship once where my then SO insisted on sex every day. If I didn’t want to, then he accused me of not loving him anymore. It really got my self esteem down, made me feel less attractive, ergo: even less in the mood for sex. Women need to feel beautiful to be in the mood. Well, I do, anyway. When I’ve put on a few pounds, I feel unattractive and in no mood for physical contact of any kind. Simply because I do not want to be confronted with my own body. Because at that time I don’t find myself sexy. It’s hard to let yourself be loved if you don’t love yourself.
If you think that there has been sexual abuse in her past, I doubt a twin counselling session is going to help.
People that have gone through something like that usually blame themselves; they feel dirty and evil, and one of the hardest things to do is tell their SO as it hugely embarrasses them. They think their SOs’ll stop loving them. It’s a very real angst.
See if she wants to go to counselling on her own.
Sex strengthens the intimite bond you have with a person, it reaffirms the connexion you have with another person. No matter what people say: sex in a relationship is hugely important.
Why not try this:
I think the difficulty your wife has, is the “violation” of her body. The fact that there’s penetration and that she’s “subjected” to it.
Not what you intend, but i’ll betcha deep down that’s how she feels.
Try and please her, only her, without penetration. Explain it to her as some sort of experiment: you’ll pamper her, with your fingers; or orally, whatever it takes. Tell her she just needs to lie there and enjoy. Gradually build in hand jobs for you. Still no violation of her body. You can instruct her how to do it. She will experience the power she has over you, your “coming” is in her hands, literally. It might perk her up. She might start feeling as somebody that you desire, and not just as if she’s doing her marital duty. I think she doesn’t find herself attractive. She needs to work on that: be happy with/in herself.
Once that accomplished (and it’ll take a while, believe me), you can start with full blown sex again.
Try and get her off anti-depressants, they’re no good for the libido.
if she really needs “something”, buy her some Bach Flower Essence Rescue remedy. Far better than all that chemical stuff, and no negative side effects.
wishing you the best of luck,
mvg,
els
'pologies for the double post, i’m using an azerty kbd and it’s doing my head in.
els
And yet a third vote for “The Sex-Starved Marriage!”. Honestly, it’s a useful book. For one thing, you realize that you’re not alone. And it has good solid info and advice.
I’m on the other side of this problem: after my son was born my libido tanked. It has been further damaged by antidepressants and weight gain. I also think my c-section and subsequent bladder surgery cut down on the amount of feeling I have in the ol’ nether regions.
I think that intimacy suffers a lot when one partner’s libido is so lacking. I know in my case, when I have no libido I stop flirting, stop hugging, stop kissing…because I don’t want it to “lead somewhere” and result in me having to reject my husband outright. Even tender gestures seemed threatening. However, not doing any of those things is a pretty painful rejection of him in itself. Worse yet, the truth is my libido stands no chance at recovery if I don’t let myself be touched in non-sexual ways. And so it goes, it’s quite the difficult spiral.
Get the book. Both of you read it.
And I think that if at all possible, you should aim to tackle this problem together, as a couple, with both of you having the same goal of a healthier, happier marriage. You should both be on the same side in this, not on opposite sides. I hope she becomes more cooperative and wants that, too.
Thanks for the insight Cranky. My wife also had a c-section, with both kids actually. So maybe that’s more on the pile. And I’m gonna get that book.
I hope things work out for you, DaddyTimesTwo Didnt mean to depress you with my sob story. This is you thread afterall. I’d just like to say that after some coming to grips with the root of our problem, I decided to just not dewll on what hurt me. It stopped getting worse, but it didnt get better. Thats why your thread drew me.
I’m gonna read the book. I may flash the title to my wife as a not so subtle hint (subtle hints never worked for me) but take that exotic vacation I told you about. If it works out, you can start to really talk to each other. If that doesnt work, at the very least you got to a place that you can enjoy. Make a conscious decision to be happy with what you have, with or without her libido. It’ll save you from being all knotted up inside.
elfje is right. But don’t expect sex to lead from the massage. Give her regular touch that she enjoys (honey, can I rub your feet? Honey, why don’t you go soak in the tub and I’ll come in in fifteen minutes and wash your hair for you (ah, someone else washing my hair, the epitome of luxury). Let me rub your shoulders. Hold her hand. Put your arm around her while you watch tv. And nothing more. No sex, just letting her know that she (and you) enjoy touching each other.
After a while of this behavior, if she hasn’t initiated sex, start pushing toward more erotic touch. But not every time. And watch the timing on pushing it. No kids around - they went to bed easily. Dishes are done (preferably by you). She seems to be in a good mood.
Drives me batty when my husband comes up and squeezes my breast - especially when the kids are around (he is discrete, but it doesn’t increase my comfort level). He thinks its cute and erotic. I think its darn annoying.
If she loosens up with a glass of wine, pour it.
Oh, and don’t get too into the foreplay stuff - by which I mean, enough that she enjoys it, but not hours of sex. Before kids, I liked hours of sex (although even then, there is nothing impressive about a guy who does the bouncy bouncy part for forty five minutes before climax - I get sore and it isn’t exactly flattering that I’m apparently unstimulating enough that it takes that long). After children, I enjoy sex and we have a good time, but, unless something weird is happening, if it takes longer than twenty minutes I start wondering if I wouldn’t be better off getting sleep.
Dangerosa, I have the same problem your husband does. I give the wrong kind of “cute” touches at the wrong time. it’s something I’m working on. The whole thing is a work in progress. Thanks for the tip. And honestly, we never enjoyed “hours of sex”. In the “good old days” it’d be alittle that a little of that, bang bang bang as soon as i came it’d be sleepy time.
Anyway.
Some guys think “women enjoy foreplay” and then take it to an extreme where it is just annoying and even painful. I just wanted to make sure you weren’t one of them.
I like chocolate, too. But five pounds of Godiva in a sitting will make me vomit.
I have a question for the wimmen folk who have the low sex drive. As much as I enjoy sex, I enjoy a nice sloppy handjob with lots of lubricant nearly as well. Why not tell him, “No, I don’t feel like it but why don’t you lie back.” and take 5 minutes to wax the dolphin? 5 minutes and washing your hands doesn’t seem to be a bad deal to make somebody happy and put them to sleep?!
Word of caution on the ‘no penetration’ approach… for a lot of women, the abuse isn’t centered on penetration but on the psychological abuse associated with being stalked sexually, never being safe from a look with intent. I was stalked by my grandfather to the degree that I would stay outside until I peed my pants rather than come inside and use the bathroom (because he would be able to look at me when I walked through the room). Even a glance the wrong way at the wrong time can put me on the defensive. Dealing with it as just avoiding penetration can way backfire if that’s not the issue. Not knowing the issue (since she won’t talk about it) makes it that much trickier. The general approach isn’t bad except that everything works better in segments than in a flow. No push EVER for more than what is NOW. Movement towards, yes. Expectation of any single outcome, no. As soon as I smell a ‘what I want from this is to X’ deal, I’m right back to being encouraged to play board games with my great uncle so that he can get his arm around me so that he can rub up against me so that he can run his hand down my hip so that … you get the picture. I learned to be very (hyper-) sensitive to any intent further than the current action.
The real thing that makes a difference for my willingness to connect on the little stuff is knowing absolutely that if I say no, it means no without grumping and whining and punishment later in subtle ways. My husband had to be completely, 100% willing to stop any time, if I was bothered. Now, that’s evolved into really asking, for real, if I am willing/interested. Asking if I’m interested is really ASKING if I’m interested, not saying ‘Hey, I’m interested, can you please get here with me so I can get my rocks off, how about I just kind of do this and that and hope you’ll continue down the direction I want you to go?’ I may still feel bad if I say no when I’m genuinely asked, but I have way more interest in saying ‘hey, let me see how I feel, hmmm, maybe, yeah, that sounds like a good idea, hang on a bit, I’ll have to catch up.’
If I feel like I’m being TOLD that you want it now can I please be interested so you can have some now, thanks, my answer is gonna be, ‘do I feel like it? No.’ Followed by a big old ick reaction and a need to stay well away from the sexual predator. Same deal if I’m being told that I’m being offered a massage but I can feel the sexual intent behind it. Ick ick ick. I am smart enough to figure out a bad pattern, thanks, and stop it at the first step instead of the last one.
I’m trying to think of an analogy… how about the question being ‘do you want to cook dinner tonight?’ - That can be asked two very different ways. In one way, it can be the ‘real’ question. Do you, yourself, outside of how anyone else feels, want to cook tonight? The other way has a hidden issue - the question is ‘will you save me from having to cook dinner because I wanna watch TV/whatever?’ - the weight is not on ‘what do YOU want’ but on ‘how do I get you do to what I want’. The answer I’ll give if I’m asked ‘for real’ will differ from the answer if I’m asked as a way to sidestep the real issue (what he wants). However, if he says, ‘hey, I really want to watch that show, can you please make dinner tonight?’ it works much better. And I know I can still say, ‘you know, I’m beat, I’m sorry but I really am not up to cooking.’ Then we can work out an alternative (this is where the hand jobs come in, perhaps, jumping back to the real issue). But it requires that we’re both being honest about how we feel, and asking with the expectation of having to just deal with the answer we get, and working it out from there, even if one of us doesn’t get the answer we wanted. And not being pissy about it, either.
And boy, the lack of respect communicated in the ‘cute/sexy touch at the wrong time’ - that was a major factor in one splitup for me. Just because you think it is cute and sexy, does not mean I do. And if you don’t bother to incorporate how I feel, what does that mean about how much regard you have for me, about who is important in the situation (clearly not both of us), and whether my preferences about my own body have any meaning to you. It infuriates me, not just annoys me. It smacks of intentional torment for your own gratification if you cannot learn how not to do that. Cluelessness may be the real cause, but boy that’s not how it translates for me (though I’ll admit to being somewhat reactive to that approach after having been tormented by it for a few years). The substantial lack of respect involved is a deal-breaker for me. It is like turning up music you like and she doesn’t like just to bug her. Rude and inappropriate for a loving, respectful relationship. Working out a compromise is a big part of dealing with two different people’s preferences, needs, and expectations.
Anyway, good luck still. Also Dx2, I’m glad that much of the stuff in the OP is stated in anger, and not the whole picture seen without angst.