Hey Bob55, another question, these Italian relatives of yours - do thay live in the US perhaps? My husbands family immigrated in the early 20th century and took on as many of the US customs as possible to show that they were “American” . They even refused to teach their children Italian because in those days, being from a foreign country had a stigma of being poor and somehow lower class. They also changed last names, but it’s only because it was the American custom at the time.
I kept my last name, and it is rather a pain in the ass at times, but not so much that I’d change my name! I don’t think my husband’s family is too happy with it, but I don’t care. His first wife kept his name. We’re all really good friends, so sometimes it’s rather amusing to go places and try to figure out which name the reservation is under, and then they think I’m not the wife and she is.
This site indicates when a name cahnge in Hawaii is legal (apparently if the lt. governor signs a decree you have to change your name whether you want to or not) and reference Hawaii statute section 574-1. Which we find here and reads in its entirety
(cites omitted)
And so we find that Hawaii does not in fact require the woman to change her last name upon marriage, but only to declare what name she will use. And the man is also required to do so.
So are you implying that women who DON"T change their names don’t love their husbands, and that women are incapable of “caring” for themselves and need either their parents or a husband to do it for them? When did it become 1940 again?
My wife kept her own name. It was her decision, and she did it for a variety of reasons. Her first name and my last name would have sounded kind of stupid together, she’s been known by that name for her whole life, and she dosen’t buy into the “take the name of your husband” mentality. I am glad she kept it, as I would have been disappointed had she changed her name after we got married.
It bothers me when women change their names to that of their husbands - it seems so primitive and subservient to me. I was disappointed when my sister got married and took her husband’s last name. I never talked to her about it, but it always kind of bothers me.
Since nobody seems to be attempting to answer this part of the OP:
allow me to WAG.
I suspect that it dates from the days when it was customary for a woman, on marrying, to move in with her new husband in his extended family home. At that time, when surnames were getting started, a lot of them would be taken from the trades that people engaged in, and the whole family would probably be involved in the trade together, and would be labelled as such.
So, say you’ve got John down the road, who makes pots. He’s probably going to be “John the Potter” or “John Potter” for short. His kids will probably grow up to be potters in the family business too … so they’re, say, “Bill Potter” and “Joe Potter”. And then Bill marries Sarah, the weaver’s daughter (“Sarah Weaver”) … well, she’s probably not going to be doing any weaving any more so she’ll naturally become “Sarah Potter”. It wouldn’t be so much taking on the husband’s name, but the family’s name … along with engaging in the family business and living in the family house.
In the countries where married women don’t change their last names after marriage, how do the courtesy titles work? Say if Fraulein Butterblume married Herr Regenmesser, would she just be called Frau Butterblume?
Happy
Aspidistra this seems like a logical answer… but it wouldn’t it then be a more universal practice? it just seems that since it’s predominantly done in western countries that it is a more modern concept than taking a last name from occupation.
btw, thanks for trying to answer my question.
Happy Lendervedder, lasts names don’t effect marital status. why wouldn’t she be referred to as a frau?
from the limited farsi that i know, a woman is called khanoom (lady) whatever her name is. any iranians out there that can correct/confirm this?
No, what I’m saying is if Miss Butterblume lived in a country where women don’t take their husband’s last name after marriage, and she married Mr. Regenmesser, would she be referred to as Mrs. Butterblume after the wedding? (i.e. last name remains the same, the courtesy title is the only thing that changes?)
Happy
i guess it depends on if there is a difference in title. meaning that in a region where the husband’s last name isn’t taken if there are different titles for a married woman or an unmarried one.
in america i’d assume that it is a matter of individual preference. i’m guessing that it would be most common to take on ms.
I worked with some people who were christians from India. Let’s say that Mary Simons married Matthew Thomas. Her name would then be Mary Mathews (Mathew’s) as in a possession of “Mathew.” I imagine it could get very complicated with forthcoming generations, just as hyphenated names could become in our culture. Only heard this from the people I worked with. Don’t really know the rules.
In the old days she would be Frau Regenmesser, or Frau Butterblume-Regenmesser. German women didn’t keep their maiden names unless by hyphenation. Nowadays, it’s the same as in the U.S… We use Ms., they use “Frau” as the default.
So, If you’re Ms. Butterblume here in the U.S. before marriage, and if you want to keep your name, you’re Ms. Butterblume after. It’s the same in Germany for “Frau”.
No one uses “Miss” anymore. In the U.S., people still sometimes use “Mrs.” socially I guess, but if they insist on that title, they are going to use their husband’s last name.
In Latin countries, I believe everyone is “Senora” if they’re married, regardless of last name.
It’s always been safest to use the “married” honorific when you aren’t sure of someone’s marital status. The Fraeulein thing is slightly offensive and archaic. (just as calling a Mrs. “Miss” would be)