Marriage sucks - it really does...

Well, the OP used the word “frigid” once, and there is no evidence that he has ever actually used the term directly to his wife’s face. You’re making too much out of that single reference.

What part of “she doesn’t want counseling, and as of late she doesn’t want to talk about it either” do people not understand? I’m full of sympathy for couples who have relationship problems and are doing everything possible to rectify them. But burying one’s head in the sand is not the solution. When the man in a relationship is uncommmunicative and unresponsive to attempts to help a relationship, and when he refuses to attend counselling, he is usually criticized for his lack of consideration–rightly , in my opinion. Surely women should be held up to the same standard?

By all appearances, the OP is genuinely concerned and wants to do whatever he can to resolve this problem. It is rather offensive to make the assumption, as some people seem to be doing, that his own attitude is the thing getting in the way of a solution.

Christ, read the posts, will ya! People are suggesting separation NOT just because “she hasn’t wanted sex lately,” but because she hasn’t wanted sex lately AND shows no inclination to do anything that might help the situation (talking, counselling, etc.). These are two totally different circumstances.

You’re right, there is a chance that she doesn’t want to be with him any more. But if that’s the case, she should just come out and say it, rather than hanging around in an increasingly futile relationship. One would think that the OP’s attempts to talk about the issue, and his suggestions that they get counselling, might have provided her with an opportunity to tell him that she wanted out of the relationship.

If this change had come about gradually over the course of a long period of time, or had occurred when the marriage was some monhts or years old, i would have more sympathy for your argument. But, according to the OP, the sexual tap was turned off “[j]ust a week or so after we were married.”

Now, it’s certainly not beyond the realms of possibility that this was something beyond the woman’s control. I have every sympathy for someone who has a low sex drive and who has a partner with a high sex drive, because i don’t think anyone should have to have sex when they don’t want to. It just seemed to me that the timing of the lost sex drive was a little too coincidental to the wedding. And the woman’s apparent refusal to address the problem by talking, counselling etc. does little to allay my suspicion. YMMV.

Again, i would agree that this is certainly a possibility, EXCEPT that, according to the OP:

a) their sex life before the wedding was fine
b) his wife became sexually unresponsive within a week or so of the wedding

Of course i realize that we are only getting one side of the story here, but as it’s all i have to go on, i’m trying to make my recommendations on the assumption that the OP is telling the truth and wants genuine advice, rather than trying to second-guess what other problems there may or may not be in the relationship.

I know. It is coincidental, and I agree with you for the most part about his honesty and information. What I’m saying is that he should 1) Evaluate his role in the relationship, whether he loves his wife, and his motivations for getting married, etc. and 2) Decide whether there is the possibility of communication in the future.

I’ve been through worse problems than this in my marriage, as have virtually every other couple who’s been married for awhile, and my stubborn insistance on communication has been all that keeps us going at times. If you have the tenacity, you should push for communication until the very end, like a bulldog.

Of course, how much a marriage can mean to someone varies greatly, and mine means a lot to me. I’m not likely to find someone like her again in this life, so I’m willing to push myself to emotional exhaustion if that’s what it takes. YMMV more than anything with an issue like this. :slight_smile:

(Bolding mine)

I don’t think she’s being a bitch or wrong because she has changed–but because she won’t address the problem. If her involvement is “at will” just as her partner’s is, then shouldn’t she choose to address the problem? Or leave if she won’t/can’t?

He husband has communicated his issue with her. She refuses to discuss it. I think this is the real issue, not the sex.

In relationships, shouldn’t there be an expectation that partners will communicate their feelings, etc? So, she doesn’t feel like having sex. He does. If she has changed, why not be honest and tell him? If her change stems from changes in him, then why not say so?

That’s the only difficulty I have in these situations. People are free to express themselves and their feelings any way they choose. However, the expression of those things is the key. It provides information that their partners can use to make informed decisions. If they can’t or won’t communicate, that needs to be said, too.

Then they both can make a decision based on what they need vs. what the relationship provides.

This is an excellent point. Two minutes and we’re done is no longer enough for me - I’d rather do without then deal with that repetitive blow to my self respect/esteem. Is it possible your wife feels the same?

Go check out the Daddyxtwo thread over in IMHO. He has a similar issue with his wife and is getting a lot of different advice.

It does take two to make a marriage, and it takes work and compromise by both parties - regardless of “I never get sex” or “I always do the dishes.” If you have no children, and no moral qualms about divorce, its probably time to sit down with your wife and say “I’m not willing to live like this for the rest of my life - we figure out together what is wrong and we both make necessary compromises - via counseling or a sex therapist, or I don’t think this is going to work.” Children and moral issues both obligate you (IMHO) to put a little more effort into trying to salvage something - but neither means that you should play the doormat (nor should she).

And marriage doesn’t suck. A lot of married people have fulfilling sex lives. I’ll admit I don’t have sex as frequently with my husband as when we first started out and were madly in lust - the lust has tapered and the children have entered our lives. But it still happens.

This was not the case with my first husband, who cheated on me. I never got trust back and our sex life was destroyed. Which meant he felt justified cheating of me again.

I’ve read the whole thread and have to ask a question…is your wife trying to quit smoking? is she taking any sort of anti-depressant? My experience with Wellbutrin (commonly prescribed to smokers who are trying to kick the habit) was that within two weeks, I thought sex was the most repulsive act two people could conceivably engage in shy of mutual cannibalization. Two weeks off the medication and I was feeling quite “regular”, thank you very much. My (ex)Doctor said that, oh yes this is one of the more common side effects of all anti-depressant medication, just not one that is widely warned against since it is not a “health hazard” (bullshit, but that’s fodder for a different thread). Point being, this could be the result of something that never occured to either of you so dig a little deeper into the facts (along with the feelings).

I’m not making too much out of that single statement, from a woman’s point of view.

Frigid:

frig·id (fr¹j“¹d) adj. 1. Extremely cold. See Synonyms at cold. 2. Lacking warmth of feeling. 3. Stiff and formal in manner: a frigid refusal to a request. 4. Persistently averse to sexual intercourse.

Perhaps it depends on your take of the definition, but as she had sex in the past with him quite happily, she cannot be called frigid in the technical sense. You know how a man feels when a woman says he has a small penis or doesn’t perform to expectations? That’s how a woman feels when a man calls her frigid. You are however correct that I should have allowed for the possibility that he doesn’t call her this to her face, but I wanted to make sure he understood how potentially devestating this is to her.

I assume the rest of this part isn’t directed to me, as I didn’t suggest they get counselling at this point. I don’t think that people didn’t understand the fact that she doesn’t want to talk about it, but it’s necessary. Yes, I did say they should talk, but that’s because any relationship without communication is bound to fail, and the OP and his wife both have to understand that. I agree with the last part of your statement here, it should work both ways. When my husband wanted to go to counselling, I went with him, if for no other reason than to come to terms with our breakup and help him resolve issues with the therapist that caused a lot of our problems.

All I was saying is that there may be something he is doing that he doesn’t actually realize. When I told my ex what had turned me off about sex with him, he was devastated. He said that when he said I was frigid he was kidding. Everything I told him was a total surprise to him, but he’d never really bothered to listen in the first place. Maybe if he broaches it from a different perspective (ie, Instead of “Why don’t you want sex?”, say “Have I done something unwittingly to make sex seem like a chore or not as fun for you?”) Maybe she doesn’t want to tell him it’s something he’s done, but she will if he asks her.

You need to reread my post if that’s all you got out of it. Yes, of course some of the problem is her fault, but I doubt, seriously doubt, that it is all her! Every relationship has two people in it, and when there are problems it is generally not one person’s sole responsibility.

mhendo, I second that emotion.

Additionally, when you marry, sex is part of the deal. It is a contract. There’s often a thin line between the power of withholding sex and outright infidelity.

We’re told the sex life changed dramatically shortly after the wedding and has been in zero mode for several years. We’re told the wife refuses to accept that she should work on this problem.

This info puts it on her. Why is everyone saying try to find the source of the problem. They talk about it, he thinks they need help, she doesn’t. How much more can he do?

Thrasymachus - you should start seeing someone, perhaps in time you can convince your wife to come into counseling with you.

Well, the OP says that his wife started refusing sex “a week or so” after the marriage, and that now, a few years later, this situation continues. In my humble opinion, a few years of this situation falls well within your definition number 4, “Persistently averse to sexual intercourse.” How much longer should she deny him sex before this definition of “frigid” becomes appropriate?

I never even suggested that it was all her fault. Whatever the reason behind her disinclination to have sex, i’m sure that the OP bears some responsibility, whether he knows it or not, and whether it was intentional or not. The point i’m trying to make is that, if the OP’s story is to be believed, it is his wife who is the one who is the main obstacle to resolving the situation due to her refusal to talk, and her refusal to go to counselling. Also, by the OP’s account his wife is surprised at her own lack of interest in sex, yet still seems disinclined to do anything about it. Not the sign of a very considerate partner, IMO.

She tricked you into marrying her. This is very obvious.

Here is what you need to do:

  1. Get yourself a good lawyer. File for an annullment, on the grounds that the marriage was consummated in bad faith. This way, you can be free and clear of this cham and she cannot get a cent of your money.

  2. Simultaneously file a lawsuit for financial and emotional damages, fraud, breach of contract, and whatever else your lawyer can think of. Lawyers are good at this.

  3. Cheat on her with some of her best friends.

That should serve her right. The best defense is a good offense.

and you did so well in the Overbite Thread…:frowning:

Don’t start again. Please.

The fact that she doesn’t want to talk about it or do anything about it could mean a few different things:

a) She feels like she’s being nagged, and is tired of hearing about it.
b) She doesn’t feel comfortable discussing sex like that, or she’s aware of what’s causing the problem and it’s not something she’s comfortable discussing.
c) She has no idea what’s causing the problem, has given up trying to figure it out, and doesn’t want to be reminded.
d) She doesn’t feel it’s a problem.
e) There is the possibility, though I wouldn’t jump to this conclusion without some evidence, that she is getting her needs fulfilled elsewhere and is simply not attracted to the OP anymore.

You might try trying to talk to her about it a bit more from the already-suggested approach of, “I’m worried that I’m doing something that’s putting you off. Is there something about me that I need to try to change?” You might also try getting some counseling yourself, even if she won’t go – having an impartial third party to talk to might help you get things in perspective and figure out how to deal with things, and whether drastic steps like divorce are really necessary.

Do not, whatever you do, start cheating on her just to get some sex. The marriage is already under strain, and an affair would do more harm than good, as well as being heavy ammunition for the wife should the two of you end up in divorce court.

Start hiding money. Build yourself a nest egg. Your lawyer may need it.

When/if the divorce starts you will be talking to a stranger (I mean your wife, not a lawyer)

Try to have an amicable reasonable divorce. Try to do any property settlement without an attorney. Be generous.

(you are going to give it to her or a lawyer - might as well go to someone you previously had sex with and presumably loved at one time.)

Be prepared to feel like you have lost an appendage for a while - even the most amicable divorces hurt.

I hope this isn’t too much of a hijack, but

I thought we were talking about not just a relationship but a marriage. Are you saying that a person can leave a marriage on a whim, for any reason or no good reason at all, just “because you fucking feel like it that day”? That marriage vows mean nothing?

I’m not married, but I hope to be some day. And if/when I marry, I’d consider it permenant, and I’d want my wife to think the same way. I want the security of knowing that she would stick with me through thick and thin, and not just leave on a whim some day. I’m not saying there could never be any justification for ending the marriage, but that it would take something pretty serious. And if it was my fault, I’d want to know about it and be given the opportunity to do something about it.

Getting back to the OP, my opinion is that zero sex may very well be a valid justification for leaving the marriage, especially if one person is able but unwilling to do something to improve the situation.

Any relationship works only so long as it is a matter of free and uncoerced choice. Doesn’t mean I’d leave my marriage casually, but I believe that no one should stay married because they feel like they must, like they have no choice, that they are trapped by their vows.

Dosen’t mean you leave the minute you are unhappy–it just means that when you stay it is with the full understanding that you are choosing to do so, for the sake of the kids, because you stillhave faith that things will get better, because even though things aren’t perfect you still prefer them to any avaliable alternitives–not because you are stuck.

I have seen lots of people booby trap relationships wanting the other person tobe the “bad guy” so that they could leave. It creates years of pain and hate and resentment for the sake of not feeling guilty.

If there aren’t any kids, then yeah, you can leave on a whim, why not?

As to the OP, I think you really only have one ethical play and that’s to lay down an ultimatum. She goes with you to counselling or you’re filing for divorce. Your other options are living in a sexless marriage (unacceptable) or cheating on her (unethical). Good luck.

Just an idea here, Thras, but have you changed since the wedding? Different job where you come home all smelly and dirty? Do you shower, shave, and brush your teeth before coming to bed? I have a very sensitive nose, and my husband coming to bed with bad breath is a huge turn-off for me. It might sound shallow, but different people are turned off by different things.

Oh man, that is such bullshit.

I’m a woman, and I say she goes. She played you, she totally played you. Get out now, and if you don’t make DAMN sure what little sex you can scrape together doesn’t make kids, because you will be leaving eventually.

That’s just pathetic.

Marriage does not mean the end of sex. I can feel less than sexy after a 12 and a 1/2 hour day and my husband knows I need to be put in the mood. He is very serious about his task, taking into account I may be tired, hungry, stressed and/or feeling un-pretty/unappreciated. He puts much thought and effort into finding out how I’m feeling and finding the right combination of words and deeds to help me feel sexy. He askes questions, listens to me and looks at me carefully.
I tell him I know I’m a lot of work but he says he’ll never get tired of trying; the rewards are great.
I have trouble wrapping my brain around a healthy woman in a safe relationship not wanting sex ever. For herself, not just to please her husband, I’d think she’d want to know why she has no libido.

Ok, OP, when you say no sex since about a week after the wedding, do you REALLY mean no sex? As in, you have not gotten ANY play whatsoever in the past few years? Absolutely none? Not even a New Year’s Eve thumping while tipsy on champagne?

Or do you mean “no sex” as in “not enough to satisfy me?”

Just trying to clarify here.