Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[you_with_the_face]

@DragonAsh

GZ’s story has gaping holes in it. And only someone desperate to believe in GZ’s innocence would think that the ‘evidence’ shows anything conclusive about Martin’s movements as being going -after- George. I repeat: All we know is that the last publicly available evidence we have is that a) Martin was running away from George, b) George was running after Martin, and c) George spent two minutes in the area not going back to his truck.

And d) Martin was in the middle of a phone conversation when the conflict with GZ started.

If the positions had been reversed and it had been GZ whose conversation had been interrupted by Martin, I suspect plenty of people would be citing this as evidence that Martin was the aggressor. Because who in their right mind would multitask while initiating conflict with a perfect stranger? It is more reasonable to assume that a person on the phone will be caught off guard by an aggressor than it is to assume they are the aggressor.

[Shodan]

@you_with_the_face

It is more reasonable to assume that a person on the phone will be caught off guard by an aggressor than it is to assume they are the aggressor.

This version is directly contradicted by Dee Dee’s evidence. According to her, Martin was on the phone with her when he initiated the conflict. So, in order to assume what you suggest, one has to ignore the known evidence.

Regards,
Shodan

[hmarvin]

@Shodan

This version is directly contradicted by Dee Dee’s evidence. According to her, Martin was on the phone with her when he initiated the conflict. So, in order to assume what you suggest, one has to ignore the known evidence.

Regards,
Shodan

According to Zimmerman’s statement, if believed, Trayvon Martin came up to his truck from the east, not the north. There’s little reason to lie, since he had no way of knowing where Trayvon was staying. According to Zimmerman, he first saw Martin in front of another neighborhood watch captain’s yard (Zimmerman was one of several watch captains). Too bad the ping logs aren’t available. Even if you don’t get an exact location, you could possibly determine when Martin entered the neighborhood.

[Magiver]

@DragonAsh

Um, no he doesn’t. According to GZ, Martin walks past his car on his way towards the house he was staying at. It’s GZ that follows Martin, first in his car, then runs after him on foot. We know nothing about Martin’s movements after the end of the NEN call. All we know is he ends up dead south of the cut-through, not near George’s truck.

His video account clearly states Martin came back to him and Dee Dee’s account of what Martin said has Zimmerman following him in his car. Her account starts with Martin running to the mail shed.

@DragonAsh

Huh? Martin doesn’t say anything about his location.

That’s a bold face lie and you know it. He places himself at his father’s house. They both lost sight of each other so he has ample time to walk in from either the front or back door.

@DragonAsh

George would have us believe he got out of his truck to ‘look for a sign’, then ‘look for a house address’, even though we know the dispatcher never asks him for an address ‘where he’s parked in front of’ until well after he’s out of the car, and even if we believe he went through to the other side of the cut-through

again, this is a bold face lie. He clearly states he’s following Martin.

@DragonAsh

• HE NEVER GETS AN ADDRESS. Otherwise he’d just say, ‘hold on 10 seconds while I go to the other end of the cut-through’. He never does this, either during or after the call; this is clear even in his walk through the next day. And we know he didn’t plan on meeting the cops at his truck or mailboxes, because he rejects the dispatcher’s offer to meet at the mailboxes, and instead asks the cops to call him when they arrive.

He’s already given directions to the cut-through which are past the mailboxes. There is no discrepancy here.

@DragonAsh

GZ’s story has gaping holes in it. And only someone desperate to believe in GZ’s innocence would think that the ‘evidence’ shows anything conclusive about Martin’s movements as being going -after- George. I repeat: All we know is that the last publicly available evidence we have is that a) Martin was running away from George, b) George was running after Martin, and c) George spent two minutes in the area not going back to his truck.

There is nothing inconsistent with either his phone record or video account or Dee Dee’s account. They all fit together. Martin approaches Zimmerman twice, the 2nd time he engages Zimmerman in conversation. There is no reason for Martin to approach Zimmerman at all unless he intends some form of confrontation which is consistent with Zimmerman’s description of both encounters. Martin has ample time to retire to his house unseen by Zimmerman and chooses to do the opposite. He had the means to call the police and report Zimmerman if he thought he was a threat and chose the opposite. He also chose to attack Zimmerman and did so for a considerable amount of time which indicates an aggressive state of mind.

Zimmerman’s actions are clear and consistent. He called the police to report a suspicious person and maintained a distance from that person. He avoided confrontation at his truck and obeyed the suggested action of the Dispatcher not to follow. Instead of wandering the area he stays on the top sidewalk T where he can see the police approach.

So we have 2 consistent patterns of behavior by 2 different people. The only way Martin can be at the top of the T is to willfully approach Zimmerman out in the open. We know he is the instigator in the conversation. There was nothing in the conversation that posed a threat and given his confrontational behavior it’s a logical to conclude Zimmerman’s response was the catalyst of the assault by Martin.

[DragonAsh]

@Magiver

His video account clearly states Martin came back to him and Dee Dee’s account of what Martin said has Zimmerman following him in his car. Her account starts with Martin running to the mail shed.

We’ve already gone over this. Based on where he says he was when he was making the phone call and where he says he say Martin while a) at the Clubhouse and b) where he finally ended up stopping his car, there isn’t enough time for Martin do all his walking up to cut-through / back to truck & circling truck / back up to the cut-through / gangsta-skip away. Also note George says nothing about Martin coming -back- to his car or circling it during the NEN call.

Which means he’s lying in the video walk-through.

@Magiver

That’s a bold face lie and you know it. He places himself at his father’s house. They both lost sight of each other so he has ample time to walk in from either the front or back door.

He says he was ‘right by’ his father’s house, which could be anywhere from standing on the porch to several hundred feet away. Or it could easily mean he made it to the cut-through, then realized he didn’t want to lead the crazy stalker guy right to his front door. GZ was paranoid about saying his address outloud, and he’s not even the one being chased.

@Magiver

again, this is a bold face lie. He clearly states he’s following Martin.

Selective memory problems? In his interviews and walkthrough GZ -clearly- states he got out, not to follow Martin but to ‘find a street sign’ or ‘get a house number’. Are you saying George was lying when he gave the video interviews?

@Magiver

He’s already given directions to the cut-through which are past the mailboxes. There is no discrepancy here.

Again, selective memory problem? The only directions given to the dispatch regarding where to meet were first, ‘meet at the clubhouse mailboxes’ (which is not where his truck was parked), then, his last instructions to the NEN dispatch was 'have ‘em call me when they get here’. So why is he wandering around the cut-through? If he was going to stick in the area, why didn’t he get a house number? You know, the reason he insists he got out of the truck in the first place.

@Magiver

There is no reason for Martin to approach Zimmerman at all unless he intends some form of confrontation which is consistent with Zimmerman’s description of both encounters. Martin has ample time to retire to his house unseen by Zimmerman and chooses to do the opposite. He had the means to call the police and report Zimmerman if he thought he was a threat and chose the opposite.

:rolleyes:

There’s no reason for George to chase after Martin at all unless he intends some sort of confrontation. George had ample time to retire to his truck and wait for the police to arrive, and he choose to do the opposite.

@Magiver

Zimmerman’s actions are clear and consistent. He called the police to report a suspicious person and maintained a distance from that person. He avoided confrontation at his truck and obeyed the suggested action of the Dispatcher not to follow. Instead of wandering the area he stays on the top sidewalk T where he can see the police approach.

Ahahahahaha. Really, this icon doesn’t give it justice, but :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

‘He wasn’t following Martin, he was just walking in the same direction’. He wasn’t wandering the area searching for Martin, he was ‘just sorta hanging killing time. Out in the open. At night, in the rain, with a broken flashlight, and without getting a house number so I could actually direct cops to me if that was my actual intention’.

@Magiver

The only way Martin can be at the top of the T is to willfully approach Zimmerman out in the open. There was nothing in the conversation that posed a threat and given his confrontational behavior it’s a logical to conclude Zimmerman’s response was the catalyst of the assault by Martin.

Incorrect. Martin can be at the top of the T for any number of reasons, including ‘I better check to see if that crazy stalker guy has left the area so I can go home’. In contrast, the ONLY reason George has for being at the top of the T is because he spent the two minutes or so after the NEN call hunting for Martin.

There was nothing in the conversation that posed a threat and given his confrontational behavior it’s a logical to conclude Zimmerman’s response was the catalyst of the assault by Martin.

Interesting -we agree that ‘why are you following me?’ to someone that’s been stalking you for the last five minutes is not ‘threatening’ or ‘confrontational’. And yet you think that’s evidence that Martin was intent on being threatening and confrontational?

Even more interesting, you think that it was George’s response that escalated the situation? Gee…and here all along, I was thinking that your scenario had Martin starting the fight.

[Magiver]

@DragonAsh

We’ve already gone over this. Based on where he says he was when he was making the phone call and where he says he say Martin while a) at the Clubhouse and b) where he finally ended up stopping his car, there isn’t enough time for Martin do all his walking up to cut-through / back to truck & circling truck / back up to the cut-through / gangsta-skip away. Also note George says nothing about Martin coming -back- to his car or circling it during the NEN call.

Yes we’ve been through this before. He starts the phone call and drives away. Martin has already passed him. We know this because of Dee Dee’s testimony. Martin RUNS to the mailbox and is subsequently FOLLOWED by Zimmerman.

@DragonAsh

Which means he’s lying in the video walk-through.

It means nothing of the sort. You’re taking his video walk-through as if it was meant as a second by second account. He is not capable of that kind of recall. There are only a handful of people on Earth with that kind of memory. Your arguments revolve around comparative measurement of time as a way to accuse him of lying which allows you in your mind to discount other pieces of testimony. You do this to the exclusion of other evidence that is consistent with what he says.

@DragonAsh

He says he was ‘right by’ his father’s house, which could be anywhere from standing on the porch to several hundred feet away. Or it could easily mean he made it to the cut-through, then realized he didn’t want to lead the crazy stalker guy right to his front door. GZ was paranoid about saying his address outloud, and he’s not even the one being chased.

No it can’t be “anywhere”. You don’t get to hand wave evidence away because it doesn’t suit your needs. He made this statement in response to the insistence of Dee Dee that he run. He says he’s not going to run because he’s right by his house. Once sentence reinforces the other.
He’s already there.

@DragonAsh

Selective memory problems? In his interviews and walkthrough GZ -clearly- states he got out, not to follow Martin but to ‘find a street sign’ or ‘get a house number’. Are you saying George was lying when he gave the video interviews?

Sorry no, he’s on record as getting out of the car to follow Martin. He repeats the discussion to stop following him in the video. You keep treating the video as if it were a second by second linear account of what happened. It’s not. He’s relating as much information aas he remembers it, when he remembers it. When asked in court about why he got out of the car his answer will be to follow Martin. End of discussion.

@DragonAsh

Again, selective memory problem? The only directions given to the dispatch regarding where to meet were first, ‘meet at the clubhouse mailboxes’ (which is not where his truck was parked), then, his last instructions to the NEN dispatch was 'have ‘em call me when they get here’. So why is he wandering around the cut-through? If he was going to stick in the area, why didn’t he get a house number? You know, the reason he insists he got out of the truck in the first place.

There is ZERO doubt by anyone why he got out of the truck. All his instructions are to go past the first street and turn left. He tells them to go past the mailbox.

@DragonAsh

There’s no reason for George to chase after Martin at all unless he intends some sort of confrontation. George had ample time to retire to his truck and wait for the police to arrive, and he choose to do the opposite.

He was never chasing Martin at any point. He does have a good reason to follow him and that’s to keep him in sight and direct the police to him when they call.

@DragonAsh

Ahahahahaha. Really, this icon doesn’t give it justice, but :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It’s interesting that you laugh at what Zimmerman did considering Martin did the exact opposite of what he should have done. He had all the time in the world to walk home. He had a phone to call the police if he though Zimmerman was a threat. There was nothing in the conversation that posed a threat to him.

@DragonAsh

‘He wasn’t following Martin, he was just walking in the same direction’. He wasn’t wandering the area searching for Martin, he was ‘just sorta hanging killing time. Out in the open. At night, in the rain, with a broken flashlight, and without getting a house number so I could actually direct cops to me if that was my actual intention’.

he was clearly following Martin when he got out of his truck and he stopped. It doesn’t mean he’s going to stare at his shoes. He’s states in the video he’s still looking around as he walks back and forth on the sideway which is what you would expect from someone in a neighborhood watch group.

@DragonAsh

Incorrect. Martin can be at the top of the T for any number of reasons, including ‘I better check to see if that crazy stalker guy has left the area so I can go home’. In contrast, the ONLY reason George has for being at the top of the T is because he spent the two minutes or so after the NEN call hunting for Martin.

OMG, that is a truly stupid scenario to suggest for someone claiming Martin was afraid of Zimmerman. By both Zimmerman and Martin’s account they lost sight of each other. Martin had ample time to retire to his house unseen. And yes, it makes perfect sense for George to remain in sight of his truck and so he can see the police and still look for signs of Martin. This is consistent with his original intent to connect the two. If he wanted a confrontation he would have gotten out of his truck when Martin came toward him.

@DragonAsh

Interesting -we agree that ‘why are you following me?’ to someone that’s been stalking you for the last five minutes is not ‘threatening’ or ‘confrontational’. And yet you think that’s evidence that Martin was intent on being threatening and confrontational?

Martin’s actions of approaching Zimmerman show some kind of intent. We can’t say for sure what that is but the exchanges according to Zimmerman were not anything friendly. When you look at the extent of Martin’s attack his intentions do in fact take on one of confrontation. He wasn’t threatened by Zimmerman according to Dee Dee yet he beats the tar out of him. This is the evidence we have to work with and not speculation.

@DragonAsh

Even more interesting, you think that it was George’s response that escalated the situation? Gee…and here all along, I was thinking that your scenario had Martin starting the fight.

George said something that IMO is insulting. I base this on personal experience. I’ve been on the receiving end of this. I didn’t attack anybody. Trayvon did. We know this because of the evidence.

All the physical and witness based evidence is consistent with Zimmerman’s account including Dee Dee’s.

[hmarvin]

Zimmerman’s phone call ended at 7:13.14, (no heavy breathing, no wind noise, metallic pounding, thus no movement by Z), DD’s phone call ended at 7:16, more or less, and the first emergency call came in at 7:16.11. Serino said there’s only a minute unaccounted for, and that seems plausible enough, considering three witnesses claimed the fight begin at the T, then moved south.

[hmarvin]

According to Dd’s statement, and I recommend you read it, after the phone hung up yet again, she claims that Zimmerman, in his vehicle, after 7:12, was following Trayvon. Then Trayvon eventually lost him, and after a couple of minutes, Zimmerman, apparently having ditched his vehicle, begin the pursuit anew before apparently catching up to him, to confront Trayvon . Give me a break, this is totally implausible considering the dispatcher 911 call.

[DragonAsh]

@hmarvin

Zimmerman’s phone call ended at 7:13.14, (no heavy breathing, no wind noise, metallic pounding, thus no movement by Z), DD’s phone call ended at 7:16, more or less, and the first emergency call came in at 7:16.11. Serino said there’s only a minute unaccounted for, and that seems plausible enough, considering three witnesses claimed the fight begin at the T, then moved south.

Not one witness has claimed they know where the fight began. We can surmise it got physical near the T, since that’s where items were dropped, but we don’t know if that’s where the two ran into each other or not.

And only one minute accounted for? Huh? There is around 3 minutes between the end of GZ’s call and the first emergency call. If it took 45 seconds or so for people to start calling in to 911, there’s two full minutes of unexplained movement by George. Remember - in his video walk-through, he says he hung up, started walking back, and was jumped. That does not mesh with a two-minute gap.

@hmarvin

According to Dd’s statement, and I recommend you read it, after the phone hung up yet again, she claims that Zimmerman, in his vehicle, after 7:12, was following Trayvon. Then Trayvon eventually lost him, and after a couple of minutes, Zimmerman, apparently having ditched his vehicle, begin the pursuit anew before apparently catching up to him, to confront Trayvon . Give me a break, this is totally implausible considering the dispatcher 911 call.

I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. We know that George can’t be in his vehicle following Martin after 7:12pm, because the dispatch log has Martin running ‘towards the back of the entrance’ at 07:11:59, so George is clearly out of his car by 7:12.

But your main point is true - George drove did in fact ditch his vehicle to chase after Martin on foot.

What’s your point?

[Magiver]

@DragonAsh

Not one witness has claimed they know where the fight began. We can surmise it got physical near the T, since that’s where items were dropped, but we don’t know if that’s where the two ran into each other or not.

Not true. Zimmerman was a witness and has given testimony and it’s backed up by witnesses who heard the start of the altercation as well as the physical evidence.

@DragonAsh

And only one minute accounted for? Huh? There is around 3 minutes between the end of GZ’s call and the first emergency call. If it took 45 seconds or so for people to start calling in to 911, there’s two full minutes of unexplained movement by George. Remember - in his video walk-through, he says he hung up, started walking back, and was jumped. That does not mesh with a two-minute gap.

what’s not meshing? He’s walking back and forth on the T waiting for the police who he asked to call when they were in the area.

@DragonAsh

But your main point is true - George drove did in fact ditch his vehicle to chase after Martin on foot.

at no point was George directly chasing Trayvon. We know this from both phone calls.

[hmarvin]

@Magiver

Not true. Zimmerman was a witness and has given testimony and it’s backed up by witnesses who heard the start of the altercation as well as the physical evidence.

what’s not meshing? He’s walking back and forth on the T waiting for the police who he asked to call when they were in the area.

at no point was George directly chasing Trayvon. We know this from both phone calls.

While George is just standing there talking on the phone Trayvon is just waiting for him to finish? With hundreds of housing units, how could Zimmerman ever find him if Trayvon went home? Ring one doorbell after another? Even in DD’s questionable account, she claims that Trayvon told her Zimmerman is parked in his vehicle, talking on the phone? Z isn’t doing anything “weird.” He’s not following anyone. Why that would make anyone panic, unless they were doing something wrong, or about to do something wrong, needs explaining.

[PatriotX]

@hmarvin

While George is just standing there talking on the phone Trayvon is just waiting for him to finish? With hundreds of housing units, how could Zimmerman ever find him if Trayvon went home? Ring one doorbell after another? Even in DD’s questionable account, she claims that Trayvon told her Zimmerman is parked in his vehicle, talking on the phone? Z isn’t doing anything “weird.” He’s not following anyone. Why that would make anyone panic, unless they were doing something wrong, or about to do something wrong, needs explaining.

You might find some interesting questions which are directly relevant to your questions if you examine TM’s phone logs and DD’s account.
Based on those things, it seems that GZ was spooking TM before GZ ever got on the phone to NEN.

GZ’s story is hinkey and hokey with gaps.

[Magiver]

@PatriotX

You might find some interesting questions which are directly relevant to your questions if you examine TM’s phone logs and DD’s account.
Based on those things, it seems that GZ was spooking TM before GZ ever got on the phone to NEN.

GZ’s story is hinkey and hokey with gaps.

questions like how long it took Martin to walk from the store to his house? It took him over half an hour to walk less than a mile and he ran part of that distance according to Dee Dee. Zimmerman took all of 2 minutes to walk around the top of the T. Could it be he liked to look at houses?

[PatriotX]

@Magiver

questions like how long it took Martin to walk from the store to his house?

I was thinking of ones more relevant to the particular issue at hand in the post I responded to.

Since TM hasn’t given an account of his movements and whereabouts, it’s not likely that anything TM did could be construed as a hole in TM’s story. At least not afaict, anyway. ymmv.

@Magiver

Zimmerman took all of 2 minutes to walk around the top of the T. Could it be he liked to look at houses?

Zimmer doesn’t tell us that he spent 2+ minutes walking around looking at houses.
Iirc, in one of Z’s versions, Z was still on the phone with NEN when he reached the east side of the block and didn’t hang up until after turning around to head west again.
Z doesn’t mention walking around looking at houses or anything of the sort afaict. Z says that he proceeded back to his vehicle. He doesn’t mention any diversions otherwise.

But obviously, he was somewhere doing something. But he has chosen not to reveal where or what.

From the phone records, and DD’s account, TM was aware that GZ was scoping TM [is that PC enough of a verb?] for minutes before GZ called it in.
Which, again is something which is different than how GZ reported it in his re-enactment.

Not saying that these discrepancies mean that GZ was doing any particular thing. Not even saying that the discrepancies show that GZ wasn’t doing the things he said he did. Only saying that the discrepancies show that GZ was at least doing more than what he let on and that these discrepancies are in time frames which could change the nature of the narrative provided.

Imho, it seems prudent for a juror to suspect that there’s prevarication going on because of the discrepancies, the nature of the discrepancies and the time periods involved.

I respect that some people can look at these things and not see anything amiss.

[Magiver]

@PatriotX

I was thinking of ones more relevant to the particular issue at hand in the post I responded to.

Since TM hasn’t given an account of his movements and whereabouts, it’s not likely that anything TM did could be construed as a hole in TM’s story. At least not afaict, anyway. ymmv.

Zimmer doesn’t tell us that he spent 2+ minutes walking around looking at houses.
Iirc, in one of Z’s versions, Z was still on the phone with NEN when he reached the east side of the block and didn’t hang up until after turning around to head west again.

again, the video is not a linear outlay of every minute of that night. When he talks about the discussion with the dispatcher to stop following Martin he’ already at the end of the T. It’ not a linear account to the second and there is no reasonable expectation of such a recall. Clarifying where he was at the end of the call and what transpired after that is something that gets clarified in one sentence in court. There is no “gotcha” with this. Now if a witness or piece of evidence like a video of him wandering about the backs of the houses any significant distance then that is a “gotcha”. Someone seeing Zimmerman striking Martin is a “gotcha”. This is what I’ve been looking for and haven’t seen yet.

@PatriotX

Z doesn’t mention walking around looking at houses or anything of the sort afaict. Z says that he proceeded back to his vehicle. He doesn’t mention any diversions otherwise.

But obviously, he was somewhere doing something. But he has chosen not to reveal where or what.

How is he possibly going to explain what happened on a second by second basis? You’re being unrealistic on a fairly large scale.

@PatriotX

From the phone records, and DD’s account, TM was aware that GZ was scoping TM [is that PC enough of a verb?] for minutes before GZ called it in. Which, again is something which is different than how GZ reported it in his re-enactment.

Zimmerman’s call starts at the clubhouse and Martin has already run past him to the mail kiosk. If he drives by Martin and they stare at each other then I’d expect Martin to be aware of that and Zimmerman pulling over would certainly reinforce the idea that Zimmerman saw him and reacted to it. You seem to operate under the misconception that some people think Martin has no reason to be suspicious. He RAN to the kiosk and then left soon after with Zimmerman in tow.

[PatriotX]

@Magiver

again, the video is not a linear outlay of every minute of that night. When he talks about the discussion with the dispatcher to stop following Martin he’ already at the end of the T. It’ not a linear account to the second and there is no reasonable expectation of such a recall.

I agree with these statements.

@Magiver

Clarifying where he was at the end of the call and what transpired after that is something that gets clarified in one sentence in court.

I disagree.

@Magiver

Now if a witness or piece of evidence like a video of him wandering about the backs of the houses any significant distance then that is a “gotcha”. Someone seeing Zimmerman striking Martin is a “gotcha”. This is what I’ve been looking for and haven’t seen yet.

I wish you luck with your search.

@Magiver

How is he possibly going to explain what happened on a second by second basis? You’re being unrealistic on a fairly large scale.

Imho, it’s not realistic to think that I have such expectations.
But you’re welcome to believe as you wish.

Imho, 2 min out of six is a significant fraction.

@Magiver

You seem to operate under the misconception that some people think Martin has no reason to be suspicious.

A number of people have asserted that Martin should have been cooperative toward Zimemrman instead of suspicious of Zimmerman.
What of it? How does what other people say have any bearing on our discussion?

[Steophan]

@PatriotX

A number of people have asserted that Martin should have been cooperative toward Zimemrman instead of suspicious of Zimmerman.

No-one’s asserted that. What people have asserted is that Martin should have done pretty much anything except what he did, which was to attack Zimmerman. He didn’t have to cooperate. He could have done so, or he could have simply ignored him and gone home, he could have told him to fuck off. He could even have gone and hidden in some bushes for shits and giggles (assuming they were on public property), as long as he didn’t then get out of them and punch Zimmerman.

Tragically, for reasons we’ll probably never know, he didn’t do any of that.

[Magiver]

@PatriotX

Imho, it’s not realistic to think that I have such expectations.
But you’re welcome to believe as you wish.

Imho, 2 min out of six is a significant fraction.

I don’t understand what you mean by 2 out of 6 minutes. What question do you think can be asked in court that poses a problem for Zimmerman?

@Steophan

No-one’s asserted that. What people have asserted is that Martin should have done pretty much anything except what he did, which was to attack Zimmerman. He didn’t have to cooperate. He could have done so, or he could have simply ignored him and gone home, he could have told him to fuck off. He could even have gone and hidden in some bushes for shits and giggles (assuming they were on public property), as long as he didn’t then get out of them and punch Zimmerman.

Tragically, for reasons we’ll probably never know, he didn’t do any of that.

This.

[PatriotX]

@Steophan

No-one’s asserted that.

Cite, please.

There’re people who exist outside of this board. A whole lot of them. Even if no one on this board has ever said such, which I am not too sure about, there’re are other people who have said more or less exactly that.

But, again and still, my point that what people have or have not said in re this matter is irrelevant.

[Magiver]

@PatriotX

Cite, please.

There’re people who exist outside of this board. A whole lot of them. Even if no one on this board has ever said such, which I am not too sure about, there’re are other people who have said more or less exactly that.

But, again and still, my point that what people have or have not said in re this matter is irrelevant.

you can’t ask for a cite proving something doesn’t exist. Aside from that the implication of the statement is that nobody on this board has made the assertion. Since you made the statement, it’s up to you to back it up or withdraw it.