I think Stink Pot Fish summed it up very nicely… However, he left out the awkward smile and the “aw shucks” hand slap after one of his not-so-near misses…
Donovan McNabb = Kordell Stewart?
You are insane. Or you’ve never actually watched Kordell Stewart play.
Are you insane? Kordell Stewart coasted for years on his “Slash” persona that made him extremely popular, but covered up a pretty mediocre career. And anyone can look like a genius when they line up next to Jerome Bettis, one of the greatest RBs ever.
On the other hand, McNabb is a bona fide Pro Bowl star that has had a great run and with a few more big years will go down as one of the top QBs of his generation.
ETA: Physiatric diagnosis simulpost FTW!
No, he was not. Jamarcus Russell is a godawful disaster. Brady Quinn was godawful disaster. Jake Delhomme was a godawful disaster last year. Jason Campbell is a 62% career passer in spite of constant instability and mediocre support.
I’m willing to believe that he was worse than his numbers, but there’s a limit to how far you go before you become one of those idiots yammering that “Schmidt hit 45 homers, but all of them were in late inning blowouts.” Campbell was obviously better than at least a half-dozen other NFL starters last year, and arguably a lot more.
Of course they are. You can say that McNabb is worth it, but it’s ludicrous to say there is no cost. Especially since first-rounders get so much money as to make them a mixed blessing, the middle rounds are where you build your team. There is a reason Bill Belichick keeps stockpiling 2nd rounders.
Do you really think all those guys are going to be on the roster come opening day? :dubious:
Oooh, if we’re playing “ridiculous meaningless comparisons,” can I counter your Kordell Stewart with a Jim Plunkett or a Kurt Warner?
Wow. Did you really just compare Donovan McNabb to Kordell Stewart?!
Let’s analyze that:
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[li]First of all, “Slash” was not the unquestioned starter all 8 years he was in Pittsburgh. He sat on the bench for 2 years behind Neil O’Donnell(1995) and Mike Tomczak(1996).[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]The first year he started(1997), he game-managed a Steelers team that was very good to begin with.[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]The next 2 years, they lost a lot of talented players to FA and injury and they didn’t do shit.[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]The next year(2000), Stewart was benched in favor of Kent Graham.[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]In 2001 they put together a great team and Stewart had a great year; they went to the AFC Championship game and lost to eventual SB Champion New England.[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]The following year, he threw an interception into double coverage in the end zone at home against the Browns in the 3rd game of the season and get replaced by Tommy Maddox out of thefucking XFL. Stewart was released at the end of the season.[/li][/ul]
Sounds exactly like Donovan McNabb’s career, doesn’t it?:rolleyes:
Leaving aside McNabb’s 216:100 touchdown to interception ratio. I think maybe that compares somewhat favorably with Stewart’s 77:84, but I could be wrong.
Fun fact: McNabb has the lowest interception to attempt ratio of any active quarterback other than Aaron Rodgers and David Garrard.
Well, they both have pretty good arms. And they’re both QBs. And black. And they played in Pennsylvania to start their careers. Oh, and they both have testicles!
I think the fact that most of their players have been drafted & developed can cut two ways, though. It’s a team that’s always had significant identifiable flaws, don’t you agree?
I feel like the list of his own players (and particularly offensive skill-position players) whom Reid has overvalued tremendously is a really long one, and includes every wide receiver that ever played for him, for instance, and most of his running backs. It even includes McNabb, if you consider the way that Reid calls a game to be indicative of what he thinks of his team’s abilities. LJ Smith, Koy Detmer, Reno Mahe (actually every return man for about a decade), a rotating cast of linebackers who weren’t really NFL players… there are a lot of guys who demonstrated they weren’t good enough and not only stuck around for a little while, but actually had long tenures with the team, or had featured roles when they pretty clearly weren’t good enough to merit them.
I’m not saying he builds terrible teams, obviously, I’m just saying that the fact that Reid drafted Kolb and identified him as the next guy means that he by definition is going to think he’s a great player. If Reid drafts you to do a job, that job is often yours until long after everyone else in the world has noticed you aren’t good enough.
As for Stink Fish Pot, well. This is the trouble with talking about McNabb in this city. For every person who actually sees the flaws that are actually there, you’ve got at least one of these… other types. They hate the guy. I won’t speculate as to why, but it seems pretty clear that they crossed over into irrationality a long time ago.
Did anybody else notice that in the effort to avoid tripping over his own point, by implication he actually called Kordell Stewart a good quarterback?
The counter argument was that the Redskins need to be drafting a developmental QB, presumably with their 1st or 2nd round picks. They would have spent a draft pick either on McNabb or on a rookie. The difference in cost is zero, and since they are getting a guy who will play better than a 1st rounder for at least the next 3 seasons it’s probably a net positive.
How is that relevant? If they wasted time and money on a player that isn’t on the opening day roster that only serves to reinforce my point. The point is wasting 3 roster spots on washed up RBs and not developing or evaluating young RBs sets them back. It sets them back far more than “drafting” McNabb with a second rounder, doubly so if they get something back for Campbell. The Redskins ought to be locating a RB for the future and determining if PJ Hill can play at the NFL level. That’s simply not going to happen this year at all. Swapping Campbell for McNabb doesn’t actually inhibit them from developing a future QB since the space on the roster is equivalent.
The only way this hurts the Redskins is if they were absolutely certain that Tony Pike, Dan Lefevour or Tim Tebow are going to be future stars and intended to draft a QB with that second round pick. Otherwise, from the perspective of building the team, this is a lateral move at worst.
I think it’s pretty clear to see who has lost a bucketload of credibility here.
Man, there are only, what a dozen good-to-great quarterbacks in the NFL. Donovan McNabb is quite clearly one of them.
This is an uncapped year, so there is no need to trade Campbell unless you can’t afford spending that kind of money. And that’s clearly not a problem for Snyder. I think they keep Campbell to come in when McNabb gets injured.
It’s funny how this is the second backup traded between the Mannings, what with the Battleship Lorenzon going from New York to Indianapolis a few years back. I think Sorgi was the #2 at the time, but still. But yeah, totally agreed. Hell, I could back up a Manning for how durable they are.
I disagree. A 4-12 season can help turn the franchise around if you draft properly. I remember when my Giants when 4-12 in 2003, then followed it up with a 6-10 in 2004. Not great seasons to be sure, but I viewed them as necessary growing pains for a team that builds through the draft. In hindsight that process was well worth it, but that’s only because they drafted well. 4-12 sucks donkey balls if you fuck up the draft, but if you draft well it can be the beginning of a new era.
You all missed my point, but since you all missed it, it must have been my fault.
I didn’t mean to imply that Kordell Stewart and McNabb have had the same career. I meant that McNabb will fall very quickly now that he’s left the Eagles, ala Stewart leaving the Steelers.
And I went back and checked his stats quickly. McNabb’s stats were obviously better than Kordell’s, but in 6 seasons as the Steeler starting QB, he lost two AFC Championship games at home. He was with the Steelers for a total of 8 years.
I had the misfortune of living in Pittsburgh during the Kordell years, and near Philly for McNabb’s career. So yes, I may be a bit harsher on McNabb than some of the other fans. But there is a strong parallel to me between the relationship of McNabb and Reid and Stewart and Cowher. Cowher would have never won a Super Bowl with Stewart as his QB, and he had to bench him in favor of Maddox or risk losing his job.
Back when Kordell was installed as the starting QB by Cowher, there was a power struggle within the organization. Tom Donohoe, the GM at the time, did not believe in Stewart. Cowher did. Rooney sided with Cowher, and Donohoe was fired. Cowher was tied to Stewart’s success, and without an intervention to bench Stewart and let him get out of town, Cowher would have never seen another Super Bowl.
Anyhow, if you would make me choose between McNabb and Stewart, I’m choosing McNabb. But I’m not winning a Super Bowl with either one. Eagle fans have suffered enough with McNabb. Time for a new arm.
The Eagle teams over the last 10 years were one of the most dominant in the NFL… just imagine if they had Kurt Warner as their QB instead of McNabb.
One more item for you stat geeks. Someone put together a list of games that McNabb started against non-playoff teams over his career and it was well above .500. They also looked at McNabb’s record against playoff teams or teams with a winning record, and McNabb was well below .500. So against good competition, he wasn’t much to write home about. The point is, he cleaned up against poor teams, and didn’t do much at all against good ones. His two weeks last year against Dallas sealed his fate.
I don’t care what color uniform you put on him, he still can’t complete the 15 yard crossing route.
:dubious:
Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce.
1 year of TO, 1 year of DeSean Jackson as a non-rookie, James Thrash, Reggie Brown.
Spot the difference.
The significant identifiable flaws, IMO, have usually been gameday strategy, not team-building stuff. To deal with your list:
Koy Detmer and Reno Mahe … You’re gonna complain about backup QBs and punt returners? Shouldn’t that tell you something?
They’ve never had good LBs because they didn’t choose to use resources (high picks and big money) there; it was a strategic decision based on what Jim Johnson felt was important.
Yeah, people used to gripe that he can’t draft WRs … but Jackson, Maclin and Avant seem to put the lie to that. Throw in Celek and McCoy and he seems to be on a roll.
Yeah, there are busts … everyone has busts. But all in all I’ll stack up Reid’s record against just about anyone over the last ten years. Pick five random teams and compare their drafts to the Iggles.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3700&type=team
Avant has 1300 yards and 8 touchdowns in 4 seasons. I don’t know if I’d hold him up as an example of Reid’s draft savvy.
The Redskins were one of the five worst teams in the league last year. They lost to the Lions.
Yes, miracles can happen, but realistically, they need to be rebuilt over 2-3 years. Maybe they make it back to respectability this year, get better in 2011, and are ready to contend in 2011. Redskins fans would love that.
Now, if you’re embarking on a multi-year rebuilding, you have to think ahead. QBs generally peak about 5 years into their career, at about 28-30. Most RBs peak about 25-27 or so. You don’t need to spend three years developing them; other than pass-rusher, RB is probably the position in which guys most easily adapt to the NFL.
So, if you’re thinking ahead, RB is the natural place to stick a geezer you’re trying to squeeze one more year out of; you’ll draft a RB later on, when you have the rest of the pieces in place. The QB is the guy you have to draft now, so that he has a couple years to grow into the job.
Not to mention throwing in Philly instead of domes of Arizona and St Louis. My guess is if Philly had Warner, they would have already driven him out of town.
I’m not sure if everyone notices, but there are a lot of players on a football field besides the quarterback. There are the guys the qb throws it to, the guy he hands it to, and the guys blocking for him. There is a defense, a kicker, and coaches on the sideline. These people aren’t all clones of equal skill. They actually are of varying abilities. Quarterback don’t win or lose games. Teams win and lose games.
Mcnabb can’t win a super bowl. Just like John Elway couldn’t and Manning couldn’t and everyone else couldn’t until they could. Mcnabb remains an above average quarterback, which means he pushes you closer to winning. He doesn’t single handily make you win super bowl, just like every other player. Getting rid your good players for not being good enough is a nice way to be rebuilding for a very long time.
Bolded for posterity.