My husband and I were much younger when we started dating, but he was less experienced and had a sort of awkward energy about the whole thing. I didn’t mind taking the lead but I did wonder if he thought he was in love with me because I was the first person who had expressed interest in having a committed relationship with him. So I definitely had to rule out the possibility that he was desperate. And I did that by asking him if he was desperate, at which point he explained that he wasn’t, just inexperienced. He was able to name specific things about me that he found attractive, like my perseverance in the face of hardship and so forth. So it was fine.
But yes in fact that’s a relationship that almost got derailed before it really got started because of mostly my issues, so we are lucky we figured it out.
As someone who has an anxiety disorder, I suggest that this is best discussed with a professional. This isn’t meant to be disrespectful, but if something is making you almost physcially ill, then it will take more help than what a message board can provide.
If you are clearly able to engage with women, but run into problems when you are second guessing yourself, then maybe sorting this out with the help of a therapist can be productive.
You’re right, I should probably talk to a specialist about… many things, actually.
That’s me down to a T.
My experience is both very different from yours, and at the same time strangely similar.
As I wrote above, I’ve had many relationships, more than all other guys I’ve discussed this with. But numbers are deceiving.
For some reason, I’ve always found it very difficult to start something. There were times when I had several flings in very quick succession and then absolutely nothing for a year. In my late 20s, I was single for over three years and I remember it started being an issue when I noticed several women reacting with suspicion to this information, sort of “if a guy like him is alone for so long, there must something really creepy about him.” I guess I give off some of the awkward energy that @Spice_Weasel describes.
When I was younger I could make up for it with other things : good looks, interesting conversations, a quirky sense of humour. And the women who did make the effort to get to know me better concluded that I was indeed relationship material. I’ve been lucky in having 5 women spending several years each with me. But many, many more seemed put off by my weird vibes, I guess.
Now that the perks I had are fading as I age, the weirdness is coming to the fore. And on the other hand, a lot of the women I interact with act in overly defensive or extremely suspicious ways. They may have very good reasons for that, but I find this exhausting, and not worth my time any more.
I’d rather play the piano, read, go cycling, practice yoga, travel, or do dozens of other activities where I do not have to second-guess other people’s intentions.
I don’t know. That sounds very “normal” to me. Most men lie somewhere between “40 Year Old Virgin” and “Who want to sex Motombo!?” In my mind, the baseline is men start dating when they’re in their early teens, have a string of monogamous relationships lasting from a few weeks to a few years, then more or less marry whoever they are with around 25-35. But everyone is different.
From what I can tell, a fair number of guys dating few to zero women in high school and college. Of maybe 20 guys on my freshman hall:
Maybe 2-3 had on campus girlfriends
1-2 had some sort of long-distance thing going on
About half (including myself) would hook up with the occasional girl at a party from time to time
The remaining 5 or so I don’t think I ever saw them with a woman at all. Never head of them going on a date. Never saw a girl sneaking out of their room in the morning. Nothing.
I started dating when I was around 16 (and that felt late to me). I found it incredibly awkward. I could talk to girls easily enough but really had no idea about the details of dating. Stuff like when do you ask a girl out? How do you ask her out? What kind of date do you go on at 16 with no money and parents always around? When do you make the first move? When do you have sex? Plus high school is a closed system so you’re more or less all in the same dating pool and everyone knows everything about everyone. Not to mention that high schoolers are basically children (in spite of how they are portrayed on TV), and all develop at different rates. Not to mention all the mixed messages about sex, drugs, and alcohol. Again, everyone is different so there is no universally correct answer.
I mean no one tells you how that works. Which is actually why I don’t fault that PUA stuff. I don’t mean acting like an alpha-male turd to turn yourself into a fuck boy. But it would have been nice to have a playbook for the basic logistics of dating.
FWIW, I did manage to have a few relationships in high school and a number of flings or one-offs and not leave high school a virgin. Turns out (after some trial and error), it was actually pretty simple. I think someone alluded to it up thread:
Strike up a conversation with a girl you are pretty sure is unattached.
Arrange to meet up at one of your houses (ideally hers) to watch a movie
At some point into the movie, initiate making out.
Turns out that was basically it.
I mention this because I feel like it’s fine to be sexually awkward and clueless in high school, maybe college because most people are in the same boat. But if you’re still weird about dating in your 20s when people are starting to think about settling down (or not), women are going to pick up on that and be a lot less forgiving.
From your posts, you don’t come across as a sexually confident 50 year old man with the long history of solid relationships you mentioned. Not that I’m “out there” and necessarily know what I’m talking about, but I think you need to be confident in your own weirdness at this point. Because women I suspect a lot of single women in your dating pool will also be kind of weird and have a bunch of their own baggage at this point. And I’m sure they project that shit on whoever tries to date them.
Unless you’re still hitting on 20-somethings. Because that’s kind of weird.
There would kind of have to be. The people who are married at that age are probably pretty comfortable being married. The ones who are not had more opportunities to be disappointed in relationships, more experience with relationships going sour, and perhaps more trauma. And then of course the more you’ve been divorced the higher chances of divorce.
If anything ever happens to my husband I doubt I’m getting married again. It sounds like too big a hassle.
Well, yeah. The people who made the right marriage in their twenties or thirties or forties, barring having their partner die which doesn’t happen much that early, are still married. The only people in the dating pool are widows/widowers, late starters, odd tastes (may be fine people, but not who most people want to live with), people who married the wrong person the first time but took a long time to give up and get divorced, people everybody really ought to run away from, and, as you put it, people with baggage (maybe they’re basically OK, but their behavior in relationships is screwed up by past experience; and this is likely to include a lot of those who married the wrong person the first time.)
All the long-term relationships I’ve had were initiated by the women I ended up with, i.e. they’d have to be waving a dozen huge green flags before I’d make a move.
And for the ephemerous flings, circumstances made them happen easily (nightclub, holidays, alcohol when I used to drink, generally being young and having fun).
I think that if the woman I’m seeing isn’t basically saying ‘I want you’ or if the circumstances make rejection a real possibility, my lack of self-confidence comes across very clearly.
They defintely do in my experience, which I pick up on.
That was definitely me, which made me pretty much give up on pairing up once I hit 30. I met my wife withing a week or two after telling my therapist that I was giving up, and that I felt like our sessions were indistinguishable from one another, ie me bemoaning not being able to date like a “normal person”. When Ms. P and I had been dating longer than I’d ever dated anyone I let her know that if I acted weird that could be the reason. We talked it through.
The problem is, is that “doing enough” doesn’t mean not actively threatening, raping, harming etc women. That’s simply not good enough.
I, for example, have a responsibility to take seriously, and appear to take seriously, my 5’ 5", 100 lb project manager with the very high voice, for her brains and subject matter expertise. I have a responsibility to not slowly overtake a woman on a dark, empty sidewalk at night.
Let’s be serious, most people have some baggage by the time they are 50, whether they are in the dating pool or not. That is to say, most happily married people in their 50s have baggage, too.
It’s not about trying to find someone without baggage. If you are looking for a partner at that age, it’s about finding someone with baggage you are okay with.
Ha, this is so true. As I put it to a friend recently, my husband and I are probably both rather difficult to live with! It’s just that the ways in which we’re difficult to live with complement each other.
First of all, I misunderstood the woman/man/bear meme until I read through the other thread. I thought it was the MAN who would rather spend time with the bear in the woods than the woman. You know, because the woman would be annoying and complaining the whole time.
I didn’t realize it was about women feeling more threatened by men than bears.
Or maybe because bears are big and cuddly?
As a man, I suppose growing up I, like many other men, have always believed that our superior size and strength was something women valued. As a protector, builder, or getting a jar off a high shelf and opening it if the lid is stuck.
But now I think a lot of men feel they are being pressured “Don’t be big, strong, or ambitious because some of us find that threatening”. So they take a position of “well fuck it then, I’m just going to check out and go off and do man shit where I won’t be bothered.”
We do value it - when the situation is one where those features are needed and appreciated. Not when it’s used to bully, intimidate, threaten, or when men use their “superior size and strength” to degrade, demean, or diminish the accomplishments of women, or prevent them from accessing jobs, education and opportunities.
As for protector, builder, jar reaching and opening…
What is it that men think women need protection from, in general? Hint: it isn’t bears.
Why is “doing man shit” defined as protecting us from scary men, instead of men simply not being violent and threatening in the first place?
Builder: what is it that men can build that women can’t? Sure, you can carry that big component all by yourself, but two of us cooperated and worked together respectively and still succeeded, and neither one of us herniated a disk to show off! Women need to feel safe in these spaces and get the training and support and knowledge to build what they want to build, not get mocked, belittled, humiliated and harassed for wanting to participate.
Jar reach/open…sure, if you’re nearby, feel free to offer. If I’m already on a step stool and got the jar within reach, don’t step in front of me to get it as if you’re some sort of prince charming. It’s not impressive. There are jar opening tools, and I’ll use one, but yeah, I’ll ask my husband if he’s around because he’s available. Turns out I’m actually able to generally open jars on my own without him though.
Like so many things in life, it isn’t necessarily what you do, it’s how you do it that’s important. Be polite when you offer help, accept “no” for an answer with grace, and don’t tie your self worth to whether a “smaller/weaker” person is capable of doing your job or accessing pickles. You can still do all those things, and it’s great! The solution isn’t to disengage, it’s just to adjust, and for most men, the adjustment is pretty negligible.
I’m sorry if this is overly snarky, I’m in a foul mood.
For that matter, the height of shelves and the effort required to open jars are design choices. If it’s hard for an average woman to open a jar or easily reach a shelf, who designed them that way?
