This is a good encapsulation. And the “danger” in #1 isn’t trivial. When you’re really attracted to someone, it could be a great relationship that you’re giving up there.
#1 isn’t trivial. But #2 is fucking horrific. It’s okay to acknowledge that there are real risks in either direction, but you still gotta err on the side of avoiding #2.
I think this thread is mostly about “would you like to go on a date?”, not “you wanna f*** right now?”. You seem to be thinking we’re discussing #2. We may well have been up around post #1, but IMO it’s been about asking for date since about post #150.
Applying the rules appropriate to question #2 to question #1 situations is asking for trouble. At a minimum it leaves a lot of potential value for both parties on the table.
Sure would be easy if everybody could speak plainly & clearly and accept what they hear at face value without 'roiding out.
It seems to me this whole ‘I’m busy’ response followed up by uncertainty as to whether that means no or genuinely just means busy could be avoided quite simply:
“Say, would you be interested in going out with me sometime?”
Don’t set a time or date. Establish interest first with a question that doesn’t give room for ‘I’m busy that day’ as a response. If the answer is yes, then establish a day and time.
Repeatedly bugging an uninterested person for a date is indeed being a creep. Persisting in that for an extended period of time is indeed being a stalker. It’s not necessary to be phrasing it as ‘you wanna fuck right now?’ instead of ‘Go out with me? Please go out with me? C’mon, go out with me!’
You seem to be assuming that the amiguity is always accidental or playing hard to get. Often it is a way to get out of answering in a way that may provoke a hostile response.
In your scenario, how should you respond to a non-committal answer? “I don’t know, I’m pretty busy with work/school.”
That you had this conversation shows it wasn’t the situation I was discussing. Some hires got held up by visa issues. Some got held up by budget cuts and freezes. Maybe a woman is rejecting a guy for stupid reasons, maybe for good ones. Getting into a debate is never a good idea for anyone.
I’m wondering if the people lamenting the fact that most women rarely give a direct no when rejecting dates are also peeved when all of the rest of society also doesn’t give clear cut no’s when declining invitations.
I can’t think of a single time when someone has declined an invitation of mine with simply the word no, or, “no, I’m not interested in spending time with you,” or “no, that doesn’t sound like fun.” It’s always some version of, “I’d love to, but I have to work late that day.” Or, “that sounds great, but I already have plans for that day” etc.
Is anyone really turning down their neighbor’s invitation to their kid’s backyard graduation party with, “no, I’m only polite to you because you’re my neighbor, otherwise I wouldn’t speak to you.” When you’re invited to a dinner party and don’t want to go, do you say something like, “no, your last party was really boring, so I don’t want to go this time”?
To me it comes across like women are being singled out for rejecting date invitations the same way that everyone rejects invitations…no one is bluntly honest when turning down an invitation…not even when they’re a 6’2" burly young man and are declining a little old lady’s invite.
It’s no more realistic to wish a woman would turn down a date invitation with “no, thank you, I don’t want to date you” than it is to want somone to turn down an acquaintance’s invite to a backyard BBQ with, “no thanks, your personal hygiene isn’t the best, which makes me think that your kitchen isn’t all that clean so I’d prefer to avoid your home cooking.” Most everybody would say something like, “Saturday? the 9th? That’s the day I’m going to be washing my socks…so sad I can’t make it.”
You’ve misunderstood my post. #1 is not dating and #2 sex. #1 is respecting what a person says and taking them at their word, and what the downside of that is. #2 is trying to guage whether the person really means what they say, and sometimes going by your own judgement about what they mean, and the downside of that approach.
I mentioned sex because how you treat a “no” in asking for a date is related to how you view “no” in other contexts.
It’s my feeling that we anthropomorphize animal behavior by applying our own cultural constructs to what we see, then somehow use that to argue our constructs are innate.
This is especially true when we are watching edited footage of animal behavior, when the editor themselves is actively constructing a narrative that viewer can relate to. The same applies to secondary accounts.
For some reason, all your examples of “the rest of society” involve adding a gratuitous insult to the simple rejection that you’re comparing to. No one is suggesting anything comparable to “I’m only nice to you because you’re my neighbor …”.
That said, there’s some truth to your general point that people tend to give excuses so as to avoid rejecting other people. But the salient point is that in the situations you describe, there’s no ambiguity about it. You’ve suggested examples of parties which are fixed dates, and if you have an excuse for that date it’s not like they’re going to move it to another date for you. In the case of dates, it more ambiguous, since if you say your issue is the date, the guy might well suggest another date.
Most people attempt to be polite where possible, but generally do manage to convey upfront what the bottom line message is and not rely on the other guy to keep asking until they give up. In the case of dates it’s a bit different. And the main difference is not that women enjoy playing games, but simply that it’s more difficult to come up with catch-all excuses for such potentially open-ended requests.
But the unfortunate side effect is that it can make it more difficult to discern between the people who are genuinely disinterested and the people who are playing hard to get.
Well, yes, but there are ways of discouraging more tries without it being rude. You dont have to say “You?!? Never!”
“No, thank you I am seeing someone.” is always acceptable, even if not true.
And sure, If ones asks “Hey would you like to get dinner Friday?” and she sez “Not Friday, I am booked up.” Then perhaps a “How about Saturday?” isnt a creep way to go. But if she sez “Not Saturday either.” without saying “Some other day?” or something along those lines, then it is Ok to give your number and say " Well, if you are interested, call me" and retreat. But no more than twice, and you should be able to read body language and tone to ask that second time.
That’s a bad idea. I mean, unless you are 100% sure you are never going to see her again, that means she has to actively keep that lie up to spare your feelings. It also perpetuates the really creepy logic that men won’t respect a “no” from a woman–but will respect the “claim” of a hypothetical man.
I mean, I don’t blame women for telling the lie, but I’d never encourage my child to use it.
Its a darn handy one - because usually men do respect another man’s “ownership” even if they won’t recognize your own agency - and sometimes the safest one. But its REALLY screwed up.
It also implies "I’d date you if I wasn’t seeing someone - which as you point out, means that if you ever see this person again, you’ll need to keep the fictional boyfriend around.
Other have just said a “blunt no” is a bad and rude idea.
So, then- what do you say then?
Theoretically? The same sort of thing I say if I don’t want to go to a neighbor’s BBQ. I think it’s a fantastic point that we aren’t direct there, either, and no one calls it “playing games”.
Which is?
“No thanks, I’ve got a commitment”
And if they say “OH, sorry you cant make it, but we have another shindig next weekend, how about then?” (covid issues aside, of course)
I mean, is it that you dislike your neighbors? Dislike social gatherings? Dislike BBQ? Really busy that day?
“No, busy then, too”. And I would think it a little clueless that they kept asking when I gave no encouragement.
I mean, you think I should tell them I don’t eat meat?
Well, like we have said- two noes and they better stop.
Hmm, a lot of BBQs do have vegan options (salads, veggie kabobs, etc), but some vegans cant stand the smell of meat. But unless you like them and want to socialize you dont have to explain. If all it was that you needed vegetarian options and you wanted to socialize with them, I think explaining that would be nice.