But my point is that telling a lie (I’m seeing someone) is setting yourself up for complications.
I am really confused about this whole conversation. What is your point? I just said it was a bad idea to use a claim by a fake man as your “excuse”. Why are you struggling with that?
That is a really good point.
Also a good point.
In some cases, taking ‘no’ for an answer without argument may improve your chances that she’ll ask you some time in the future.
(Don’t count on that, though. While it’s possible that what she wants to know is whether you will take no for an answer, it’s more likely that she just doesn’t want to go out with you.)
And it absolutely shouldn’t be necessary. ‘The only reason I won’t go out with you is because some other person has a claim on me’ assumes that everybody must be paired. It’s obnoxious. It’s even more obnoxious when the connotation is ‘some other man already owns this woman.’
And everything MandaJo and Dangerosa said about that. Plus which, it implies that the guy ought to ask again if he happens to hear that you’re single.
Hijack of the main topic: but if you want to hang out with them otherwise, yes, go ahead and tell them that. Maybe they’ve got plenty of other stuff to eat, maybe they’ll invite you to something else. – if the problem is that you don’t want to be around anybody while they’re eating meat, that’s trickier, because it’s not only a statement about you but a criticism of them. Saying you can’t stand the smell might indeed be a way out of that one.
That was not my point. It just seemed to me that DrDeth wanted me to agree that sometimes lying was the best way to deal with an invitation.
And “I have another commitment” isn’t a lie. Your commitment might be binging Bridgerton for the fourteen time by yourself with a bottle of wine. Or it might be not dating strangers who ask you out.
never mind
To my ear, “No, thank you I am seeing someone” connotes full agency of the woman; it says that she is actively engaged in a relationship already and is choosing not to compromise that relationship. The connotation might be different if she said “I can’t, someone else is already seeing me.”
A woman shouldn’t catch any verbal or physical grief for simply saying “no thanks, I’m not interested,” but decent women (and men) are nonetheless motivated to avoid hurting the feelings of others whenever they can. If I (a man) were invited on a date by a woman in whom I had no interest, I would have a difficult time flatly telling her “not interested.”
Actually it is a lie. If you wanted to date the guy, you’d be free.
The thing is, the point of the thread, is that because men don’t take NO for an answer, at least not in a way that can be relied upon not to be horrible for the woman, women have been backed into a corner where they feel that they have to lie, deflect, and disseminate to avoid the worst. It is a horrible situation that is bad for everyone, and it is entirely because there is a wide swath of the patriarchy that don’t respect a woman’s right to reject them.
So yes, women are lying. Is “No, thank you I am seeing someone” a good lie to tell then? No. It’s a lie that requires a massive backstory, which must be maintained in a theoretically sitcommy escalation of lies if the man goes “Oh yeah? Who? What makes him so good? I’m much better - you should dump him and date me.”, or even if he decides to just bide his time and wait for you to become available.
“Sorry, I’m ironing the cat that night” just requires you to remember what brand of iron you own and what name you invented for your fictional cat.
The reason women use this lie is that a lot of guys, especially young ones, feel like it’s unethical to chase “another man’s woman”. They have a sort of empathy, a sort of bro-code, going on.
And I’ve told men that I’m married (which is true) and they haven’t believed me. Or they haven’t been deterred. We can’t win, really.
(Like the old song:
“I got a man.”
“You’ve got a what? What’s your man got to do with me?”
“I got a man.”
“I’m not tryin’ to hear that, see.”)
Right - I’m thinking that the effectiveness of the “I’m already in a relationship” excuse hinges a lot less on any ‘bro code’ and more on the fear that the other man will kick their ass. So as the potential kickee gets older they become more aware that that outcome is unlikely and the excuse becomes less effective.
As a man, neither of these things would be anywhere near the first thing that occurred to me if I asked a woman out and she said “I’m already in a relationship.” I’d just assume that someone who was already in a relationship wasn’t open to going out with anyone else. (And that the kind of woman who would accept an offer of a date while she was in a relationship with someone else probably wasn’t someone I would want to date.)
Sure - some men are decent. The problem is the men that aren’t (as were referenced above).
As usual, some assholes muck it up for the rest of us.
And the problem is compounded by the fact that in a patriarchal society, men being assholes (even dangerous criminal assholes) tends to be regarded as just an unfortunate inevitable fact of life.
Social scrutiny focuses instead disproportionately on the behavior of women, which is expected to safeguard them effectively from the behavior of asshole men (otherwise they’re “being stupid”), while at the same time not hurting the feelings or restricting the opportunities of non-asshole men (otherwise they’re “being bitchy”).
Here’s the thing: Most men are probably not going to get hostile when turned down. Just like most men don’t rape. But the men who do get hostile, or do rape, don’t just do it once. They do it a lot. If only one out 10 guys get hostile, but each one gets hostile more than 10 times, then on average, every woman will get at least one hostile reaction in her life.
And unfortunately, women don’t have asshole (or rapist) detecting goggles.
Well, yes, sure.
But is there any answer that will guarantee a non hostile reaction?
Because if they are the sort of man that gets hostile, the “Sorry I am busy Saturday” answer wont get them to just walk away.
“Your pastor always comes over to my place to do my organic beeswax Brazilian that day” has always worked for me. Try that.
Guarantee? No. Improve the odds of a non-hostile response? Yes.
Seriously, what is your point here?
I am not sure, it seems like any answer a woman could give could be bad.
The answers aren’t bad. The reactions are. And the fact that any answer could get a bad reaction doesn’t make them all equal.