Yup, that’s an important observation. But there is also another angle. I have a few “acquaintances” who always insist on paying when we’re out in a group. I let them, and consider them to be chumps. As in… no would want you here if you weren’t paying for all of us.
I have always viewed the man paying for dates as the just price he pays for all the effort (weight maintenance, uncomfortable clothing, make-up, hair styling, etc.) women have to go through to meet conventional standards of beauty. Back when I was looking for a partner, the few men that suggested splitting checks at dinner were immediately left at the restaurant. If I want to pay for my own meal I'll get take-out and enjoy it alone reading or watching television.
To go away afterwards?
Do you really believe this? That women who hold the same jobs make 76 percent of what men make with the same jobs? Where is this true?
Studies show that the real difference (if you hold age, experience, education, overtime and other factors constant) is probably just a few percent, which I chalk up to a difference in willingness and ability to negotiate pay and raises.
Sorry, I know this is a tangent to the thread, but nobody directly challenged this absurd notion.
I too like to use people for their money.
Here is some data for you.
http://https://iwpr.org/issue/employment-education-economic-change/pay-equity-discrimination/
That link wouldn’t open for me, but here are some for you:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/paygap-discrimination/492965/ 5% gap
https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/5-things-wrong-gender-wage-gap/ 5% gap
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html 5-7% gap
http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2016/0916miller.html 3% gap
Putting studies aside, what business wouldn’t hire the female job applicant rather than the male one if they could pay 20-something percent less?
And also, back to my question: can anyone show me a companyor employer who pays women less than men for the same job, given the same background, experience, etc.? It certainly doesn’t happen in the government, or in union jobs, and those make up a significant segment of all employment. The whole idea is silly. Almost all of the so-called gap is explainable based on the types of jobs, schedules, hours and other factors that the misleading 75 to 79 percent bullshit glosses over.
I pay for the meal as a petty show of control, the same way I insist on paying at least my share of any group meal - Lest anyone believe I can’t pay my way or assume I owe them something. I get away with always having my way on this point because I’m a man. When women start insisting on the same feeling of control there will probably be scuffles at Appleby’s.
I doubt you are genuinely interested in this information, but sure.
No, I am genuinely interested. And where specific, pertinent evidence can be identified, more power to whoever can win these lawsuits. It looks like a couple of your links appeared to show cases with merit. But I am going to decline to keep posting about this offshoot of the main topic of this thread.
In that regard, I don’t disagree that men routinely paying for dates is largely outdated given modern workforce and earning characteristics. But it’s tradition, and traditions take a long time to evolve. With first/early dates in particular, I think most men and women are comfortable with the tradition. Later on, yeah, all of the dating financial burden shouldn’t fall on the man.
I always offer to split the tab. If that fails, I offer to cover the tip. If that fails, I say thank you and move on. I invited a guy out for our 3rd date, I went to pay since a)I invited and b)he had paid for the first 2, and he was visibly uncomfortable when I took the check off the table and pulled out my wallet. I jokingly gave him a hard time about gender norms since he was otherwise not an ‘old fashioned’ guy, and let him leave the tip. I have one male friend that I meet for dinner about once a quarter or so. He always pays. I don’t even offer anymore. When I meet my female friends out, sometimes I treat, sometimes they treat, sometimes we split the bill.
American female here.
I have paid my share of dating expenses, whether paying half the check on a first date or alternating paying for dates in an ongoing relationship, all my life. The only exceptions have been when my financial situation did not permit – and then I’ve usually said so up front before accepting an invitation – or when, on a first date, the man INSISTED on paying, in which case, unless he agreed to let me pay next time, his chances of a second date with me were considerably diminished.
I have heard many women say the man should pay because “he’s the man,” which boggles my mind. Women often make less money than men do (in which case maybe they should pay proportionally less), but women who insist that men should always pay make my jaw drop.
If a man asked me out I figure he’s paying. If I asked a man out I’d be doing the paying.
to me it wouldn’t be about the gender, but who did the asking.
I wish we wouldn’t bring up the topic of date grape into this.
I think this is splendid, sincerely, assuming she did not have any money of her own. – But if she was a grown up with her own career going, wouldn’t that be super anachronistic?
But isn’t that stupid 2017, when women do not need a man to provide for her, and thus isn’t it really insulting to the woman, as if she was unable to have an income of her own, as if you need to “provide”?
Thanks for chiming in, but I would like to take this opportunity stress that the question is regarding the habit of men paying the bills because they are men, and women accepting this because they are women (as a standard procedure), even though both are able to pay their own bills; as if the woman needed help to pay for the meal because she is a woman. The shag man says specifically that he dates high earning people, but yet pays for them, as if they were people who needs someone to provide for them.
So you’re saying that the person who put in least effort to the date gets to pick up the tab? Is this something you’re discussing with you date after the last drink? Hopefully it is not a guy from Poison.
Yes, and once again, I feel this is “default behaviour” (sorry if I sound crude, English is not my first language). From what I’m reading, you’re not expecting a man to pay the bill because he is a man. But yet I understand (and have experienced many times) the embarrassment of the first fellow because there are certain expectations you “should” fulfill as a man, and when you are unable to, well… it is uncomfortable. But as a contemporary woman if nothing else you perhaps do not feel he has to (in regards to picking up the tap at least), because it is a question of income and generosity, not character, or gender. I’s all good, we’re all grown ups, equals as persons, and so on, and if the who’s picking up the bill question is depended on the gender of the people involved, I honestly find it super weird.
I don’t get this. Is it actually so? If you meet a guy at the parking lot and you discuss the weather and he or she says, hey, lets have a burger on Tuesday – do you really expect that person to pay for your burger you’re having on Tuesday?
If you have an unsuspected telephone call from a person who eventually says, “Hey, baby, you sound like a ball. Let’s have steak Saturday.” Do you leave your credit card at home? – And what, if so, do you do if Deep Thoat says “no” when the waiter asks if you’ll share the tab? Screaming and waiving your hands, “I wasn’t the one who asked for this, I wasn’t the one who asked for this!”
You bring you own money to the game and pay for it, boy or a girl. All else, I think we all are agree, is dumb. Or do we not agree (which is the “original” question)?
Full disclosure: I haven’t been out on a date since 2001.
It doesn’t bother me if a man wants to pay or if he wants to split the bill. I would always offer to pay and take his lead. I see this tradition as a remaining vestige of archaic sexism but not inherently damaging assuming it’s stays relegated to silly little ritual status. I feel the same way about, say, a man pulling out a chair for his date. It’s cute. I’ll play. I’ll even wear a dress and giggle if it helps him feel all manly. I can get into that. But I basically see it as a role-playing game, not an accurate portrayal of relationships or reality. Once the relationship progresses beyond that stage of giddy playacting, I’m going to want things on more egalitarian terms. Practically speaking, the person with the most money is the one who usually ends up paying.
My husband paid for most everything when we started dating, because we were 19, I was broke as shit, and his grandparents sent him money for school. I don’t think it had to do with his gender. Things evened out once he graduated and got off the gravy train. If I were to start a new relationship now, at 34 years old, I’d be fine with whatever arrangement mattered most to him. I truly don’t care.
Warning: Post contains violet images which may be disturbing to some viewers.
Your original question was why it is expected that the man should pay. Many people in the thread have said it is not expected, that there are alternatives like whoever asks pays. Then you are incredulous about that?! I don’t get it.
But yeah, hypothetically if I (a woman) am hanging out with a guy and he says “do you want to get a burger Thursday?” I would consider that him being the asker and I wouldn’t mind if he paid. I would still bring money and offer to pay for my share and wouldn’t be offended if he took me up on it.
Maybe it’s the casual way things are offered. “May I take you out to dinner this Friday?” is more formal and to me implies the asker will definitely pay. But that seems more old-fashioned than the casual/no big deal “We should get together for a meal sometime”, which leaves things more ambiguous.
Yes, on dates. Or you agree to go dutch. When friends are getting together to catch up I don’t think it’s nearly as formal.
As several folks have posted in this thread, no, we don’t all agree. There are some well established social conventions that may or may not make sense in today’s age but still persist. They’re unlikely to change overnight, or ever completely disappear.