No, it is not. That is not my “original question”. My orignal question is not that “why it is expected the men should pay”. That is nowhere in the realm of what I am talking about.
Here’s the original question:
I had to look up the word “incredulous”, a word I was not familiar with. It means “disinclined or indisposed to believe”. What exacty in this thread am I “incredulous” about?
Please note, becauce I suspect this is the crux of the matter for you, that I don’t give a rat’s ass who’s paying the bill – man or a woman – but I’m curious why 2017 the shag man et al is paying the bill for women who obviously can pay their own bills, as ir they couldn’t, because of their gender and nothing else.
If I was a woman, I would find this insulting. I many ways I might be wrong, so I asked the internetz. It seems that most of the women who have been respondig to this thread has aired the same curiosity, but hopefully they right me if I’m wrong, I’m not trying to talk about their behalf.
But anyhow, gigi, please point out where I’ve been “disinclined or indisposed to believe” the dopers who have contributed to this thread, and the I will explain myself or elaborate.
It’s been 53+ years since I last dated. But back in 1963 it was simply expected that the man pick up the check. Not to mention pick up his date, although it was okay to arrange to meet somewhere. When I go out with my wife, I still pay the bills, although our finances are joined so it is actually irrelevant who pays. Times change though and I would expect that it might not be the same today.
If you’re asking why Shagnasty’s dates expect him to pay for their meals, despite making lots of money, we can’t answer that for them. I don’t think you’ll find many women in this forum who expect the man to pay. It’s mostly a foreign concept to us just as much as it is to you.
My best WAG, based on life experience, is that it seems important to certain men to do that sort of thing, either because they were raised that way or it makes them feel like less of a man if they don’t pay. I perceive it as far more important to men than to women. I could be wrong, but my best guess is, ‘‘she’s humoring him.’’ That is a guess based on years of going out with male friends who insist on paying for me. Yeah, okay, buddy.
I accept it for the same reason I accept any other social nicety: to not make waves. I don’t actually care. I want the other person to be happy and feel good - that’s what I care about. It’s the same reason we accepted $20 bills from my husband’s late grandmother: it meant something to her to help us out, even though we didn’t, strictly speaking, need her help.
I haven’t been out on an actual date with a relative stranger in 16 years. My husband and I play-argue over the bill but it’s the exact same bank account the funds are coming from. I magnanimously took him out to a fancy dinner when he passed his EPPP (psych licensing exam) and I insisted the bill be brought to me. He batted his eyelashes and swooned. The meal came out of our joint discretionary category.
When I was dating, in the early 80s, I always insisted on splitting the bill. There was one guy who argued that he made a lot more money than I did, so I should let him pay more. Today I think I would accept that argument, but I didn’t then.
Today, I’d also be willing to alternate. That’s what Miss Manners recommended. She said that whoever extended the invitation should pay, and that both parties should extend invitations of comparable “quality” even if they aren’t of comparable monetary cost. So, a man might take a woman to a restaurant, and she might reciprocate by cooking a meal for him. If she was very old fashioned, instead of buying theater tickets for him, she could say that her father had given her some tickets, and would he like to accompany her.
I don’t understand men paying for everything. I mean, if they hope it makes the woman feel more like putting out, okay. But that’s not the sort of relationship that interests me. I’d rather date an equal.
Thanks, Spice Weasel, but may I ask you – if you were dating men, would you not at some point be embaressed or annoyed if they insisted to pay for the meal, every time (implicating beause he is a man an you are a woman).
I’m not pushing for some sort of a agenda here, and as I’ve disclosed up thread I’ve been of the needing, receiving end of the generosity of lovers, which I’m verl unproud of, but it would annoy me to death if that would have been due to biology, as if I as man – as a man – because of that biological fact that I was born a man, was not able to… alright, here it comes, pay for my own dinner. And whether poor or rich, I don’t think anybody gets to decide what I afford, at the dinner table or elsewhere. If I was a woman and man said he pays, becuse I’m a woman, I’d probably give him a fist in his teeth. Don’t you women feel the same?
But even taking the above as your question, many people said this is not the case, that often it is the asker who pays, or the person who is working. To that you say:
What if one person is treating the other as a birthday gift, or to cheer them up, or while they are out of work? There are many variations of what could be going on, and “man always pays” and “each always pays their own way” aren’t even the only choices.
I don’t have any problem paying my half. If anything, it’s the guy that takes offense at this and pays for all. I’ll agree only if they let me get the next outing. It’s only fair.
To be perfectly frank, I could not be in a relationship with a person who insisted on paying for every meal because he is the man. I’m interested in an egalitarian relationship, which is what I have. In my relationship that means sharing responsibilities, perhaps based on an honest assessment of our strengths vs. weaknesses (I cook, because he is bad at cooking. He grocery shops, because I am a bit agoraphobic. It’s not gender-based, it’s strengths-based.)
If someone is this old-fashioned with regard to gender roles, we are probably not a good fit.
I go by the old rule of hospitality - he who invites, pays. This goes for both friendships and dating. On a first date I generally offer to pay, but I won’t push it. I come from a family which fights tooth and nail over restaurant checks, and I always feel it negates any positive feeling that might otherwise have been engendered by the deed.
In any on-going relationship I try to make sure I pay equally as often. It’s also important to not pay attention to “how much.” I wouldn’t ask the price of a gift, or choose one on the basis of how much the recipient spent last time. Same with a date. It’s what I happen to want to do, or think they would enjoy which decides the place or activity.
On one particularly bad first date I tossed $40 on the table and left, which probably covered his meal also. I considered it an insult to him, but he may well have been delighted.
Forgot to say: I agree with Spice Weasel that I couldn’t comfortably continue a relationship with a man who insisted he must always pay. Even if he were very wealthy, it just denotes an inequality that would never sit well with me.
I had a meet and greet with an internet date today at Coldstone. I made a point to pay for my own ice cream because I already knew I wasn’t interested and I absolutely couldn’t stomach the idea of having him pay for my $5 ice cream. If I had been interested, I would’ve let him pay if he’d wanted to and gladly paid my own way otherwise.
If a man asks me out I generally assume he will pay but I am prepared to pay at LEAST my share, in case he has a different understanding. If I ask a man out, then I will pay. I have had them beg me to allow them to pay the bill when I tell the server I will get it. OK, but I asked you out!
I operate on the rule “the invitee pays, unless otherwise stipulated.” Not everyone else does, so I always have a way to pay on me.
In romantic relationships, one of the things I seeked was a certain equality - equality, not uniformity, vive la difference but FFS don’t treat me like I’m a Lladró. When the other party treats me like I’m fragile and does things such as refuse to let me pay for the meal when he’s the one that’s so broke he can’t afford a dish for himself… he’s not treating me as an equal. I expect that he’ll be as interested in listening to my opinion in the bedroom as outside, so, way to not get laid.
Thought about wage disparity between men and women come to mind, and perhaps the reason for it and if men are still suppose to pay for the women, it is justification for it as well.
To a certain extent, yes that seems like a fair social exchange. I loathe (no change that, hate with the fiery inferno of a thousand suns is a more accurate description) getting dressed up. I wear make-up, pantyhose, high heels (i.e., torture devices), etc., at work when I have to because part of my job is to look professional (i.e., I am paid to wear a costume I despise). I don’t think a date where social expectations would be that I wear a stupid costume in order to conform to prevailing opinions of female beauty should be considered any different.
Well, I paid my share of dates, but I never wore clothes or makeup I despised on a date, either. I would have felt that a guy who wants me to groom like that won’t be compatible, anyway.
And this is the crux of it. What are the two people on this date really looking for? If it’s a first date, then there’s an old assumption that “the man” pays, which is a vestige of history that we all know.
But if there’s a second and third date, then what? Well, this is the point of dating. Are the two people on the dates compatible with each other? What do they want out of a romantic partner? Some people want to play out those traditional gender roles. Some people want an egalitarian relationship. Some people claim to want one thing, but actually turn out to really want something else. And so on.
So if you’re out on a first date and the man insists on paying that’s not a big thing. But if you continue and he always insists on paying and gets mad if you want to pay, that tells you something about him. Likewise if you’re out with a woman and she gets offended if the man doesn’t pay. If a woman who would never pay for a date is seeing a guy who would never not pay then congratulations, they’re perfect for each other. Otherwise, not so much.
