I’m going to talk about the cinematic versions, but feel free to compare literary versions or a mixture of the two.
In Excalibur, Merlin’s a bit of a cranky bastard, who shows up, listens to Arthur (or his father) request something, says, “You really don’t want me to do that. All right, just remember, you asked for it!” does some magic, apparently bones Helen Mirren, and generally has a cynical attitude. In Jackson’s LOTR films, Gandalf shows up, makes fireworks, falls off a cliff, gives pronouncements, and generally doesn’t seem to do much at all. I have to think that if they swapped places, Arthur or his father would have run Gandalf through with his sword in short order, while Merlin would have watched the goings on for a few minutes, then said, “I’ve had enough of this, you little bastards!” and began wiping the bad guys out in rapid succession. Put the two of them in combat against one another, and Merlin probably wouldn’t even bother to use magic against Gandalf, he’d just beat him to death with his own cane.
Let’s see Merlin take on a Balrog in single combat.
Seriously - the best he seems to be able to do is summon a fog… in Britain. Big whoop. Summoning a fog in the Shahra, I can see the challange, but in Britain? I can do that too just by waiting a day or two.
Also, Gandalf doesn’t get involved in other people’s sex lives.
Merlin, son of the devil, vs. Gandalf, an angel. That’s really a tough call. Yeah, the devil lost but he was apparently outnumbered 2 to 1 and put up a fight. Gandalf the Grey isn’t one of the big guns and a fight with a fallen angel killed him even though he took the other guy out. On the other hand, Gandalf the White is definitely a move up on the power scale. So Merlin vs. Grey, I think Merlin has the edge; Merlin vs. White, Gandalf does. The loser is whatever country they decide to have the match in.
I glanced at Wikipedia and found that apparently there are two Merlins as well. However, the second one does sound like a bit of a badass
How a hotline to God stacks up against a magic sword and the ability to talk to the king of horses , I don’t know. But Gandalf always seemed to me a bit of a sad sack of a wizard - he never appeared to do anything desperately magical.
Olorin was involved in Ainulindale! He co-created the world! While diminished in the mortal body as Gandalf, he still managed to take out the Balrog, another participant in Ainulindale.
Gandalf, grey or white, would be victorious, IMHO.
A) Gandalf can create fire, spread it about, use sealing, warding, and binding magic, counter magical fear, and instill courage. He’s also been shown creating a shining shield which can beat back attacks by titanic horrors out of hell. He can hear the voices of the natural world and can communicate with birds and beasts. Actually, in many ways, Gandalf was inspired by some of the old literary sources concerning Merlin. The aforementioned version of merlin, however, did far less than Gandalf.
B) Wizards in Lord of the Rings are primarily loremasters, not fireball-spewing artillery peices.
C) Gandalf didn’t just a few hints droppped in his ear by God. He was helping God put a universe together and police the thing.
*Bosda, did you need to prove you were the biggest geek in the middle of what could only be considered a pure “Geek Fight”? You win, bringing in a strange anime creation to a well define geek debate makes you the biggest geek. *
**As to the Merlin vs. Gandalf: There are some additional problems with the scenario. **
Gandalf would not fight Merlin unless directly confronted.
We actually know more about Gandalf than Merlin.
Merlin might be half demon, an old Druid, Taliesin the Bard, A clever magician that tricks the superstitious illiterates of the Arthurian age, Merely the current holder of an ancient title, someone that lives backwards in time or a dozen other possibilities.
Gandalf is an Angel and the Wisest of the lower order of Angels. He helped create the world. Merlin might be the child of a minor demon, an Incubus if I remember correctly. He is probably studied in the lore of the ancient Druid. He was credited by Geoffrey of Monmouth of raising Stonehenge and did such a good job of it he has fooled archeologist into thinking it was far older. He could raise fog, create powerful illusions and cast a little fire about. Gandalf fought and destroyed a Balrog, an ancient demon of fire. He is a wielder of the Secret Flame. Merlin lost to every semi-competent Sorceress he faced.
Gandalf orchestrated the destruction of Sauron and putting Aragorn into power to lead to a long Golden Age in Middle Earth. Merlin orchestrated raising Arthur to power to achieve a short lived Golden Age of Britain that lasted a few decades. Gandalf was the far more successful mover and shaker.
In a direct battle Gandalf held his staff, Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore and Narya the The Ring of Fire. He had a deep understanding of fire. He was resistant to most if not all beguilements and illusions. Working against him was the fact that a pack of Wargs appeared to be enough to have him seriously worried in the Hobbit. Merlin never showed any great offensive spell powers either. You cannot properly compare them to more modern video game or D&D wizards. In a fight I need to give Gandalf of either shade an advantage in battle and in orchestrating change.
I think that there is some underestimating here. My impression from Gandalf was that he had a terrific amount of power but didn’t want to interfere too much with the world around him. I think he could have found a way to destroy (deliver) the ring himself, but there was so much more going on, and he knew it. He’s carrying this thousand year maturity, like he’s above power manifesting.
Gandalf ** knew ** he could not destroy the Ring itself. The Ring would have corrupted him. Of this Gandalf was certain. Sauron would have been defeated, but Gandalf would have taken his place.
For the record, Gandalf arrived in Middle-Earth in 1000TA. The War of the Ring took place in 3018TA and 3019TA. So as Gandalf he did have two thousand years of experience and as Olórin he had thousand more. As Gandalf the White he had most of the Grey’s memories and much of Olórin’s. Indeed, he seems to have a few problems a first integrating the two sets of memories back together.
Jim {BTW: NJ_Kef, I hope to meet you one day at a Dopefest or Philly get together, good to have another Tolkien fan nearby}
But my point still stands that I was given the impression that he *could * have accomplished a lot more but let his friends of the Fellowship go up and let themselves be heard. Not saying that he didn’t interfere. He obviously did a whole lot and had the biggest individual impact of all.
Gandalf, no contest. Merlin allowed himself to get blindsided by a conniving temptress who locked him into a mountain forever. Gandalf came back from the dead, after destroying the Balrog.
Well, I don’t know how relevant this is, but according to my dream last night Gandalf cannot even beat Radagast the Brown. And RtB, for the record, actually wears red!
Hmmm… That is a poser. Merlin from Disney’s The Sword in the Stone, or Gandalf from Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings?
Tough call. Merlin does demonstrate the impressive ability to instantly debilitate his enemies by transforming himself into a germ and infecting them (which, quite apart from its tactical utility, just sounds so wrong). Whether this ability would work on Gandalf is an open question; Bakshi doesn’t emphasize Mithrandir’s true nature as a Maiar spirit, which I think would otherwise imply immunity to disease. However, Gandalf in the movie is so loathsomely crotchety (even compared to Madame Mim) that I tend to doubt Merlin would want to get close enough to infect him (I reiterate: SO WRONG), even if he were able to effectively target such a twitchy, jitteringly rotoscoped foe.
Disney’s Merlin displays an impressive range of conjuring and transformational powers, which collectively present a formidable offensive capability. Bakshi’s Gandalf, on the other hand, demonstrates the ability to instantly declare victory and end the film whenever he wants to, which probably gives him the strategic edge in any combat situation.
They appear to exhibit comparable skill at picking out worthless, unappealing ‘heroes’ to mentor, although Gandalf seems able to muster annoying sidekicks in greater numbers. On the other hand, Merlin certainly has a monopoly on the ability to distract an opponent with pointless, unfunny anachronisms, as well as a stupider-looking hat. Both wizards seem roughly equivalent in their generally ostentatious, arm-waving, gadding-about behavior.
Ultimately it probably comes down to the hypothetical question of whether Bakshi’s Gandalf would tend to attract unsolicited sexual advances from matronly female squirrels. Personally I don’t think so.
Or so he wished you to believe! He is a master of changes of hue, you know. “Hssss! Our dark master Sauron will be quite pleased! At last we have cornered Radagast the Brown-- oh; hang about, this bloke’s wearing red! Sorry, mate; carry on, then.” A master of disguise!
Gandalf is considerably restrained from his true power. Remember, the last time the Ainur meddled directly in the World, the World’s shape (and even topology!) was changed in the process. Hence why most of what Gandalf does is give advice. Against mere flesh-and-blood Wargs, he wasn’t willing to risk anything more direct than flaming pinecones. However, when facing a powerful supernatural foe like the Nazgul or a Balrog, he has to (and is able to) draw on considerably greater power (his battle with the Nazgul on Weathertop was, in the book, visible from a week’s journey away, and anyone who’s seen the movie knows about the Balrog). If he ever found himself up against Merlin, that would be a situation more akin to the Nazgul than to the Wargs, and the gloves would be (slightly) off (full gloves-off would probably be a Very Bad Thing for anyone in, say, a few hundred miles radius).
Oh, and a random note: In a walking-stick beating contest, Gandalf seems to have considerable stick-fu in the movie of Return of the King, his prefered tactic being to spin in a circle and flip the staff around to knock suckas upside the head.
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