Yes, obviously that’s all extremely inappropriate. Were you really under the mistaken impression that supporters of #MeToo think it’s fine for women to sexually harass or assault their cowrkers?
No, that’s sexual harassment, and maybe assault, depending on how she goes.
No, that too, would be sexual harassment, and maybe assault, depending on how she goes.
I worked with a general manager who would grind his crotch into the ass of a server when she would bend over to get something out of a cooler, no one dared say anything to him.
I do think that it is inappropriate that a woman ask a man (or anyone) about his sex life. However, I wouldn’t be mad about either. In either case, I would inform the person that that is not appropriate for the workplace, and now that we have a documented discussion, if this behavior continues, then termination becomes a very distinct possibility.
Why do you make this all about anger and making sure that “we” are equally angry? It is not about being angry, it is about preventing people from experiencing a hostile work environment. As HR, you should never be angry about a situation, that defeats the point.
Now, since you feel that anger is the appropriate response, and that reducing a woman to her legs and how much she shows of them, and inquiring as to whether a man has ever had a sexual encounter should result in equal amounts of anger, then “you better show” more anger towards the one that happens far, far more frequently.
Of course, in the situation that you were talking about, they apparently boiled him alive for his comments, and I do feel that that was excessive.
What on earth makes you think that anything you posted here is a gotcha, in any way shape or form?
I mean, the basis of these scenarios indicates that you just really don’t understand even the first thing about harassment in the workplace. It’s very alarming.
Highlighted for emphasis.
I really thought the sexual harraent training I’m required to attend was awaste of time and unnecessary because it’s just so obvious and silly. It’s two hours long and you can’t just click through, there are individual sections, quizes, things you have to interact with. I guess it can be useful?
Yes, those are too far and are ridiculous. Yet somehow you didn’t delete them before posting. Very telling.
And how in God’s name can you say you don’t see equal treatment HERE based on what ONE woman supposedly did at a place where you worked long ago? Trying hard to find the logic…nope, none there. And why did nothing happen to her? Did YOU encourage coworkers to go to HR with their complaints? Did YOU tell her to knock it off?
Those of us opposed to sexual harassment are against all sexual harassment, regardless of the gender of the accuser or accused. That you seem to regard women who speak out about the topic as hypocritical man-haters is, well, pathetic. And more than a little misogynistic.
In my job, it’s common for the boss to travel, and to take an engineer from his or her team along for engineering guidance.
I can totally get a male manager being reluctant to select a female engineer to go along with him on a week long trip, especially if she is young and attractive. Not only for #metoo reasons, but because his wife might question it, the office will gossip, it might lead to uncomfortable situations like being mistaken for a couple, etc. This may not be fair to the young woman, but it is human nature. And so far, progressives have jot been able to eradicate that. You can pass lots of laws, and you can force lots of scummy men out of their jobs, but there are always unintended consequences, and they often blow back on the people trying to force change. That’s the nature of complexity, and human relations are nothing if not complex.
In the past, ‘second wave’ feminists recognized this problem, and feminism was about making women strong and assertive like the female reporter who demanded access to the men’s locker room where athletes were walking around either naked on in underwear. She basically said that she was tough and seeing some guy’s junk was no big deal, and excluding her kept her from doing her job.
Modern feminism seems to be going in the opposite direction, portraying women as easily offended delicate flowers who need constant protection to avoid being mentally harmed, who can’t consent to sex after having a drink. etc. It’s an almost Victorian outlook, and in the long run it may have bad consequences.
This doesn’t mean #metoo is wrong, but it does mean that when you force change on society, even good and necessary change, society will push back and often in unintended ways. Amd the more militant and aggressive you are about imposing change, the stronger the pushback and unintended consequence. Progressives would do well to recognize that pushing hard on things that don’t want to be pushed can have negative consequences that might be counterproductive.
There’s a reason why we evolved the rules that govern civil society, and why in the past we allowed a large sphere of privacy for individual behaviour and beliefs. A world where you can be fired for a political belief you hold in your private life which has nothing to do with your job is a world that will ultimately be less pleasant and more fractious. Likewise, a world where yoh can be fired for past behaviour that was acceptable at the time but no longer acceptable is a world in which people will feel much less free to express themselves on the margins of the Overton Window, lest that window shift on them ten years from now and they be convicted of past wrong-think and excommunicated from polite society.
Cultural revolutions leave a lot of destruction in their wake, and it’s often the revolutionaries that suffer when they discover that the new rules they have demanded are being wielded by their opponents. If the revolutionaries actually come from disadvantaged and/or marginalized communities, just who do you think will win?
Unintended consequences of what? Allowing women to work?
You are right, no matter how many laws we pass, there will be people who refuse to treat women with respect or dignity, and consider them inferior to themselves.
Right, and that has what to do with men refusing to hire women because they are scared that they may be accused?
If that is your image of feminism, I don’t know what to say. You consider it to be an easily offended delicate flower to object to a guy grinding his crotch into her ass?
We get it, there are men who don’t want to change their ways. That doesn’t mean that we should refuse to change things, just to appease these men.
You are describing right wing nightmare fuel of a world, not the world as it exists.
No, cultural revolutions leave a bunch of people in their wake who refuse to adapt to how things have changed, and try to brag about how being stubborn is somehow being noble.
You know nothing about modern feminism, and would do well not to pontificate on it in the future.
C’mon, man. You know as well as I do what the usefulness of that training was. Just like my anti-money laundering module last week. The usefulness is to give your company the ability to tell a court, “He knew all about what he shouldn’t do. We trained him on day X. He even took a test saying he’d read every slide.”
Actually I learned quite a bit in my last sexual harassment training. Like, how it is much harder to successfully sue and win for a harassment claim than I thought it was.
Well, in CA, the training is actually required by legislative mandate.
And I have traveled with coworkers and subordinates who were women. Pretty normal.
Right, and that is important. An employee can get away with saying “I didn’t know about that policy”, if you cannot show that they very well were given every chance and opportunity to know about that policy.
You not only have to show that they knew about it, but that you reminded them periodically about it.
What seems obvious to some of us is apparently not so obvious to others.
Yes. It should read #metoo is 90%good and 10% side effects.
I compliment people on haircuts. People seem flattered that I noticed. Or are they just politely tolerating my harasssment?
It’s been my practice for 20 years to not comment about anyone’s physical appearance or manner of dress unless it violates policy in some way and I am their manager. Not in a work setting, not in a social setting where co-workers are present. It takes virtually zero effort to do this.
When someone makes a comment of this nature towards me, I acknowledge it and move on. I don’t consider it harassment personally, and a lot of times it’s just a nice gesture, but I appreciate how it can be inappropriate and bright lines are easier than grey areas so that’s how it goes.
This. Like he said, virtually zero effort to do this. Hey, I agree with Bone on something!
It depends on the relationship you have with the person. You should probably only be making comments on appearance if know the person well enough that you can be reasonably certain they will take the complement as you mean it. But if it’s someone you don’t know well–like an acquaintance, coworker, random person, etc.–then it’s generally not appropriate. Although they may take it as a simple complement, they might also take it as having a sexual subtext or as a pick up line.
As a manager, you are just better off not commenting on appearance at all unless it is grossly out of line. Too many opportunities for misunderstandings, people assuming favoritism if they don’t get similar comments, etc. It’s just better to not go there at all.
I am not saying this to be rude and with all due respect, but maybe some people just have a different personality than you? I mean havent you worked with people who love to show off the latest fashion or talk about some new thing they just discovered or want to start conversations with others about what they are wearing?
I mean I agree, I, personally, RARELY, if ever say anything about a coworkers looks. But, I know some people do. They just have this bubbly, friendly personality and they notice such things. (PS. these are the people I would go to for advice on say a new color or decoration).
Not to mention, say a person is in sales. Isnt there appearance important?