Because there was more nuance to the discussion than just foreigner vs non-foreigner experiences. Previous to the whole try-being-a-white-person-in-Asia thing, we were talking about race and ethnicity in America only. Shagnasty–a white dude–talked about getting the “where are you REALLY from?” question all the time and not seeing the problem with it. Then others, like John Mace, supported that incredulous viewpoint with their own anecdotes about being treated like oddities, and how this was merely a laughable experience. The implication being this how is it should be for everyone, regardless of context.
I believe race and social standing carry more weight than whether one is a foreigner or not, when it comes to predicting the emotional impact of prejudice and xenophobic weirdness. A poor refugee from the Sudan visiting a US town inhabited by people who have never seen an African before will have a harder time laughing off stares, whispers, and rude questions. Why? Because they lack power. The same behaviors directed at a middle-class American white guy whose net worth probably exceeds Sudan’s GDP aren’t going to carry the same punch. They just won’t. And I say this as a middle-class American black woman who has traveled the world fairly extensively.
It largely boils down to power. People with power can laugh off discrimination with an ease that people without power can not. It would be remiss of is not acknowledge that.
Well here we agree to some small degree … the foreigner vs non-foreigner experience was not really the point.
The point to ywtf was that what she was doing there, IMHO, and what she is doing here, IMHO, is the same form as what those who take offense to “micro-aggressions” complain of. Generalizing and prejudging. Yes, in this context “white dude” is pretty much saying “cracker” to my ear. You are White so you have “power.”
My point was small at that point … and spoken as one that had been an ally in the thread … be cautious to do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you.
The indignation was then absurd but right in line with the reactions of those accused of “micro-aggressions.”: I don’t see how what I said should be perceived as offensive and do not need to even consider your experience that it was (albeit in a small way, like any good “micro-aggression” is); the problem of being offended is yours for being offended.
This a straight-faced … untrue statement. My small response to her was calmly pointing out that I felt what she was doing was unfair. Where I lost my cool (and my respect for you) was when you resorted to the tactic of pegging me a just a white dude playing games because I dared to tell your sister that what she was doing was, to my ear at least, a micro-offense of its own and that her defensive reaction was self-same to that which you both bemoan.
You claim you want dialogue but your actions belie that claim. Dialogue is not just getting others to hear your POV and bemoaning that some do not. Dialogue is not being dismissive of what others think, and insulting those who do not march exactly lock step with you.
Now a solid majority (some who have read some of the thread and some who have not) of those of this liberal leaning board voted for option 1, the “almost all to much political correctness and hypersensitivity” one. I did not FWIW. As someone who thinks that we all sometimes say and do things that reflect internal tapes that we are unaware of with negative consequences to others that we do not appreciate, and who appreciates that structural factors perpetuate negative outcomes for certain sub-groups (and not just Black Americans) … I find that concerning. As someone who feels that I personally, as a member of this society, should be doing something about that, I want to explore why liberal minded people feel that way. (And have no particular curiosity in this thread about the explicit endorsers of prejudices.)
If your assessment is that you need go no further with that exploration than “it’s all power relations man … you white dudes just can’t understand, and your saying what you do not get and why and how you disagree is part of your defensiveness, dude” then I think you are more part of the problem than of any potential solution.
I see it as a “game” because you only seem to take umbrage at comments that are directed at you and your group (white guys). You don’t seem sensitive to the negative things directed at me and “my” group.
You obviously don’t perceive this as you being unfair. But I do. I see you taking sides, not playing the impartial spectator who is just trying to learn.
Now fortunately, there were a few white guys who decided to fight the good fight against the couple of white guys who came in here to thread-shit and post craziness. But disappointingly, you weren’t one of them. For once, I’d like for you to direct your lecturing tone towards the Terr’s of the thread, rather than knee-jerking when someone innocently throws out a “white dude”. (And yes, it was a knee-jerk. Not taking that back, sorry.)
Someone like Terr might actually listen to you. I am just another shrill and whiny libtard to folks like him.
I do appreciate you doing standing up to Chief Pedant in that other thread. Just wish you would be so gutsy here.
I have nothing else to say about this. So good day, sir.
Well, nuance can get lost on the internet, especially in an 8 page thread with multiple strands of conversations going on. I thought the analogy just added to the misunderstanding. The example monstro posted was more clearly egregious.
I agree with your sentiments for the most part, but it’s still too simplistic and unfair to ascribe race as the sole criteria for how people react to situations, which appeared to me as the basis of your initial reply to John Mace.
No question that white privilege exists, but we can’t just brush off individual personality types when making judgements about people. I’d assume John Mace has white privilege to spare, but we all know privileged white guys who get butthurt and indignant by any perceived slight. And we also know less privileged people who will laugh off even worse indignities.
It’s very difficult to separate out the different variables involved when judging someone’s reactions or experiences. If that wasn’t so, we’d never see unflappable black guys or sensitive white guys.
John Mace is known here for his unflappable reactions to most things, and it’s not like he’s never been the recipient of insulting posts. Is it mainly because he’s white? Is he only successful because of white privilege? Isn’t his personality an important part of his success in and reactions to life? You know him and respond to him here as an individual, not some generalized symbol of white privilege.
When you say you see race as the most important thing, is it really surprising that some white posters here (many who are on your side in most cases) will feel that you are not capable of seeing them as individuals, or that you are hand waving away their personal feelings?
Anyway, this isn’t meant as an attack on you personally; you’re one of my favorite posters and I usually agree with what you say. I wasn’t personally offended by your post, but I don’t think it was out of bounds for DSeid to react the way he did, either. He is usually sensitive to the feelings of others; why can’t he expect to get that in return? This is a thread about personal feelings; there is no right or wrong way to feel about something, but there are right and wrong ways to treat people (the finer points of which we are debating here, no?).
I never said anything was the sole anything. It is likely you got that impression because you took a snippet out of context, read way too much into it, and then drew some conclusions based on this overly analytical interpretation. In this thread, I’ve affirmed alternative viewpoints like Lamia’s. I wouldn’t have done that if I was being dogmatic about race.
I have to confess that I don’t understand–like at all–why my two-sentence comment has attracted so much attention. Especially in a thread where black people have been casually referred to as savages and the loss of racist cartoons from a bygone era have been nostalgically talk about right under our noses, with little refutation. It makes me think there is much straining of gnats going on. I’m not saying this to dismiss your contribution to this thread, but I’ve almost depleted my supply of give-a-damn on this particular sidetrack.
Isn’t this thread about why minorities consider certain comments and actions insulting and annoying? Yes, it is about that. We’re talking about group-level reactions, not individual personality types. So I’m struggling to see what relevance John Mace’s idiosyncratic unflappability has to do with advancing the topic at hand. What does John’s personality have to do with whether being interrogated about one’s national origins is kosher or not? I seriously don’t understand the point you are trying to make with this.
I will ask you what I asked DSeid earlier. What should I have said to John? He asserted that he was gawked at in Japan and treated like an oddity and it didn’t faze him, and in fact, he laughed at it. He offered this in the context of others saying that it bothered them to be asked prying questions about their origins.
Are you saying I should have attributed his ability to laugh it off to his personality? How would you have responded to his post in a way that would have been honest but non-offensive to *white folks?
Again, the topic is about groups, not individuals. Talking about individuals in a thread like this is next to impossible if we’re trying to have a meaningful discussion. There will always be outliers that defy generalization. That doesn’t mean we can’t speak about tendencies and trends.
As interesting as it might be that John Mace is wired the way he is, this detail about him is of little value in a discussion about why minorities–as a group–experience certain things as microaggressions. Do you get what I’m saying? Person A might be into S&M and enjoys being yelled at work or slapped by a lover. And? Does the existence of Person A and their personal kinks have any bearing on whether it valid to complain about verbal and physical abuse? Of course not.
Because he’s been grasping at straws throughout this thread. See footnote below.
Not to be confused with cracker, as implied by “white dude” apparently.
I’m going to respond briefly by way of trying to move the conversation along …
As the op I feel somewhat able to answer … no not primarily. I opened this thread less to hear why certain statements are found to be offensive by some members of some minority groups as much as to explore the grey and the fuzzy, to hear where others drew their lines in that murk. The clearly offensive end (in the op exemplified by Tim Hunt) was not so much my interest and hearing why something offends was minimally so. The confusing area between statements said of no conscious ill intent but still possibly the result of unconscious tapes that play and statements that actually are being taken as hurtful out of the tapes that are playing in the receiver’s mind is the area I had in mind.
I also do want to make it clear one last time … the, to my ear, “micro-offense” that was your comment, was a minor thing, and only “attracted” what was a small observation. The indignant, nay angry, reaction to being told that you had, possibly inadvertently, said something that I found somewhat offensive and telling us all that since you did not see how it was offensive then it was all my problem, and the then pegging me as just a white dude playing games … yes, that became a major issue, both because it was more a major aggressive offensive comment, and as it informs to the issues of the op.
When someone is arguing that great effort should be made to respect what offends them, and that if they say it is offensive then by definition it is, whether it seems minor or inoffensive to the person saying it or not … responds to someone saying that something they do offends with a blaming the offended for being offended and attempting to mock the offended, such as done below … yes, that informs the discussion.
NOW THEN …
To those still reading this thread - over half of you endorse the belief that it is almost all too much political correctness and hypersensitivity. Yet many of you I think also appreciate the concepts articulated by monstro that the volume of small perceived hurts adds up and the belief that I have that some of what we say without conscious bad intent is the result of those subconscious tapes.
I’d really like to hear from those people, those who both accept that people can and do say hurtful things unawares, that those hurtful things add up, and who at the same time believe “it is almost all too much political correctness and hypersensitivity.”
I get this from Chinese people in Canada. To be fair, when a Chinese person says ‘foreigner’ they mean non-Chinese. It appears to be a translation thing. They aren’t really calling me a foreigner in my own country.
Not reading it, just skimming; stopped even trying to read it days ago. Too repetitious. You know, kids, when you grow up you’ll learn that there comes a time in any argument–I’m not using “debate” because that ship sailed last week–when the path forks. Down one you agree to disagree, and you henceforth avoid the topic. Down the other you never speak to one other again. You people have continued to march down the middle in your battle of upmanship, hacking through branches and brambles because the road split way back. Screw it. I’m not playing any y’all’s games by taking sides.
Like I said, this stopped being a worthwhile discussion, where people consider other ideas, last week. Let it die before you embarrass yourselves more.
Well, I see DSeid clarified his intention regarding this thread, so I’ll edit my response accordingly.
But since you mentioned it, is it your opinion that only minorities are the recipients of microaggressions? Or that only minorities can be insulted or annoyed by them? I’m not a minority, but as someone with a “jewfro”, I could relate to monstro’s story about comments about her hair. And I also related to your story about being told to “smile”. Would you expect my reaction to be primarily different because I’m white? I wouldn’t have assumed you felt that way until I read your reply to John Mace, and the back and forth between you and DSeid.
I also can’t see how this thread can be about “group-level” reactions; I understand that race and gender are variables, but I don’t think my reactions are necessarily a representation of white women as a group, and I don’t think that your reactions can be taken as representing black women as a group. The poll itself didn’t break down responses by race or gender, so how can we analyze group-level reactions in this thread? How can we discern the trends?
For me, it’s not about what you should have said to John Mace; and not to make you defensive, but to consider the DSeid’s reaction, and and how easy it is to make assumptions about how/why people feel, or should feel, without intending offense. And how easy it is to be offended or dismissive when it is pointed out. How can that realistically be avoided, by any of us?
Your point about white men in general is perfectly valid; I just didn’t see John Mace’s reaction as the ideal representation of how most white men might react. Which seemed obvious by the different reactions posted here by other white men. I do think he is an outlier (based on my familiarity with his posts).
It did seem to me that you were dismissing DSeid’s reaction as an alternate white man’s POV, and I thought it was unfortunate that what seemed like a misunderstanding between allies led to bad feelings between you.
That’s where I’m coming from - but having to spell it out carefully in a post makes it seem overblown or overly analytical; so I understand why you might take it that way. I really don’t want to argue about it; I want to make sure I understand where you’re coming from.
Anyway, I don’t want to sidetrack the thread even more, or aggravate you, so please don’t feel obligated to reply, unless you think there is some relevant point to discuss for the thread overall.
Adding this separately because I’ve gone on way too long already.
Re: The comments from lamia, monstro, and YWTF regarding posts from Terr, Shagnasty, and some others:
Please don’t assume a failure to call these people out in this thread as complicit agreement. They are not newbies, and their responses are typical of them. Many of us have taken them on in previous threads, to no avail. I doubt any of our admonitions would have more weight; they think of all of us as “whiny libtards”. Would it be better to take this thread down that road again? I’d rather discuss things with people where there is a better chance of learning something from disagreements over the finer points.
Maybe I’m missing something, but “minority” doesn’t just mean someone of a certain hue. I don’t know if you are Jewish or not, but women with “jewfros” are a numerical minority. I’ve read some blogs by women with jewfros and their struggles are kinda similar to those of black women. I have an older Jewish friend who spent sixty years straightening her hair because she was pressured to. It’s only recently that she’s been sporting the fro, damned what her husband says. We laugh at our mutual hair issues.
The “smile” thing disproportionately affects women. The whole concept of microaggression seems associated with feminism more than anything else.
This is not a black thing. It’s an “anyone who is in a minority group, especially one that is stigmatized” issue.
The latest unsolicited diet tip I received was, “String beans, breakfast lunch and dinner. There’s something in them that makes the weight slide off. And none of those canned beans, either.” Now, I like string beans fine and would probably be fine with them (well-cooked with a little butter and a lot of garlic) three meals a day, and I consider that woman a living saint for the way she improves the day of of every visitor who enters that hospital, but really, I’d prefer that people didn’t call attention to the 400 lb me in the room, especially since my self-image has me pegged at 165. Let me live in my dream world a few minutes longer.
I say this with all due respect: You haven’t read this thread in its entirety if you’re asking this. I’ve talked about fat women, poor people, and short men, in addition to women and racial/ethnic minorities. Even pointed out that most people (including white dudes), for one reason or another, are disadvantaged in some way that might make them the targets of microgaggressive thoughtlessness. So of course I don’t think minorities are the only ones who are the recipients of microaggressions. Your question annoys me because there is no basis for it, and again, reveals that you are reading into things excessively.
Sorry, but I have way too much going on right now to respond to the rest of your post. Very stressful shit is happening in my life (fortunately, good shit but still massively stressful) and this discussion is not helping my nerves.
To be fair to myself, my basis for asking was because of what you wrote in your later post, the one I directly replied to:
I thought prefacing it with “Since you mentioned it…” would make that clear. I did read the thread, but since we seemed to have a different idea of what the OP was about, I was asking for clarification.
Yes, I’m Jewish, and a woman, but I’m still perceived as white, with white privilege, so try to avoid identifying as a minority, or stigmatized, for the purposes of these types of discussions. I’m an old school feminist; I came of age in the 70’s. We were focused on the bigger issues of equality. You could say it’s a sign of progress that we can now afford to spend time on things like microaggressions.
To be fair to Terr’s comments about that (because I’m such a nice person :)), I understand, why from his perspective, some of these issues are not worth sweating over. Any antisemitism I encounter now (and it’s not a lot, since I live in NYC), seems like nothing compared to his experiences as a Jew in the former Soviet Union. Or what my family had to go through in France during the war. It’s similar to how your parents and grandparents had to deal with so much more than you do today.
When you get older, you tend to choose your battles, and count your blessings, because you remember how bad things used to be. I’m not dismissive of people’s feelings, but I’ll leave it to the younger people to take up these issues. I’ve already developed a thicker skin and coping mechanisms, because I’m no longer idealistic enough to believe that we can change people to the point where no one will ever make, or encounter, clueless remarks.
Can we still laugh wistfully at idealistic young people? 'Cuz I really like to do that, under my breath. “Just wait, kid. Someday you will realize you didn’t change the world as much you wanted to, too.”
I think that this thread was doomed from the first choice in the poll. “It is almost all too much political correctness and hypersensitivity,” poisoned the well because the readership here is substantially white males who, because of their place on the food chain, have never experienced or noticed microaggressions pointed at them, or if they had they thought the manly thing to do was ignore them and “walk off” the pain. We are taught that to do otherwise is wimpy or womanish, and our initial reaction to social problems like that is often scorn. I know that was mine, but I decided to listen before voting, and when I did I went with “It’s complicated.” That’s also why I dismiss polls here. The respondents are self-selected and often blowhards.
I totally agree about not sweating the small stuff. Which is why I don’t harbor ill-feelings towards Jenni, or towards that professor, or towards any of the white people who have given me paper cuts through the years.
But I think the whole concept allows us to understand why people act and feel the way they do. I’ve had individual white people try to befriend me through the years and I intentionally avoided reciprocating, despite liking those individuals well enough. How come? Because some white people are more likely to be “microaggressive” in their social interactions. I can tolerate them if we’re coworkers or classmates. But as friends, they’d be exhausting. I don’t want to have be the polite when I’m with friends. So I choose to associate with white people who are empathic enough not to say things that would get on my nerves. If we’re really going to be all “we are the world” and be truly a diverse society, it can’t just be the minority person who leaves their comfort zone. At some point, minorities shouldn’t have to wear the mask that grins and lies.
So I do think understanding microaggressions (or insert whatever word you want to use) has the potential to be useful for understanding people–especially minorities. There is a reason why the lone black/Hispanic/woman/gay person in the office seems more aloof and/or sensitive than everyone else–and it’s not because there is something wrong with them. It’s not that they have chosen to have a “chip on their shoulder”. It’s not necessarily that they are harboring irrational resentment over historical oppression. It may be because they are constantly bracing themselves, waiting for someone to ask or say something that makes them uncomfortable.
I don’t expect people to stop saying foolish, annoying things. But I like to think that people are capable of appreciating the fact that minorities deal with shit by virtue of simply being minorities–even minorities who don’t come from a history of ethnic cleansing and slavery and oppression. Unfortunately, sometimes I wonder if even something this basic is too unrealistic to hope for. Empathy really isn’t as easy as it looks.