Minority University - Why Are You Still Around?

Great Debates
1

OK - first of all, I heard a blurb about this story on NPR this morning and I can’t find a lot of info online, so if anyone can find and post the relevant facts, I’d appreciate it.

If I have the details right, it seems that, in Mississippi, some people feel that the State Universities that were created (before the Civil Rights Laws) specifically for African American students have been short-changed by the State for years. A 1997 lawsuit has set the stage for the State to offer over $500MM to make up the gap, but supporters of the suit refuse to settle and want more.

The NPR reporter explained that, today, about 50% of African American college students in the South still attend these historically African American schools, despite the lack of basic facilities, run-down lab equipment, mis-kept campuses, lack of funds, etc.

So - here’s the issue: These “Minority” Schools were created for a specific purpose during a shameful time in US History. They should be abolished.

Why should the State have to spend money it may not have in a large, lump-sum, make-up-payment to try to bring these schools up to par with the rest of the State schools? Why not just shut them down and let minority students go to the schools they should have been allowed to go to in the first place?

Now, I can see the other side’s argument. I attended a Private Jewish University and put up with less course selection, fewer extra-curriculuar activities, a smaller, less prestigious secular faculty, etc, etc. But, the primary trade-off was that I was allowed to spend half of every day steeped in the study of my religion.

Am I correct in thinking that students at “Black” Universities do not spend half their time in African American Studies? If that’s the case, what’s the big deal about going there? Why be prideful about attending a school that was designed to keep you away from the place you should have been allowed to attend in the first place?!?

OK - I’ve rambled long enough - anyone else want to take a crack?

2

Interesting subject, sdimbert. I think the sociological rationale for all-black colleges (and all-female colleges, for that matter) is that they remove the psychological/sociological impediments to achievement for people in those groups - the “affirmative action” stigma, for example.
IIRC, these impediments have been proven, as much as anything can be proven in the social sciences. However, I think that the benefits of such schools are more well-demonstrated at elite colleges such as Howard. I would tend to doubt that the psychological and social benefits would outweigh serious problems in facilities and funding.

Sua

3

I heard the same NPR report. I know nothing of the specifics, but I do have certain prejudices FWIW.

  1. Money gotten by means of a lawsuit is more likely to be wasted than money paid by students IMHO.

  2. It seems quite plausible to me that an all-Black school might be better for some students. My wife went to an all-female school (Wellesley), and she felt there were certain educational advantages.

  3. I’m dubious, as is sdimbert, about the fairness of giving money to certain people today because of discrimination against different people many years ago.

4

If they are really so bad why is anyone going there at all? I know that there are some campuses on the east coast like Coppin and Morgan that are almost all Black. These schools are generally less prestigious than most schools around, but they have some advantages for a certain kind of student. First, some people are more comfortable in a homogenous group. Second, they admit almost any black student with a high school diploma. Third, they have always admitted these students who graduated from crappy public schools and have developed ways to deal with all the remedial studies necessary. It’s too bad that whites who recieved similarly terrible grade school education don’t have a similar place to go. Of course, they COULD go to Coppin too, but they don’t usually feel comfortable with the race issue.

I don’t know what’s going on with the southern schools, but the “State” universities that I have experience with (I taught classes in how to take the GRE’s at Coppin State and Morgan State), are not underfunded. They don’t have the kinds of scientific equipment etc. that the University of Maryland has, but they spend their money on other stuff, like tons and tons of free tutors for remedial classes and free tuition for a far above average portion of their students.

One student I know of graduated from a Baltimore City public school with straight A’s. She got full scholarship to Johns Hopkins University. She dropped out halfway through the first semester because she felt like she was so far behind the other students. Now Hopkins is a great school, and they didn’t drop the ball on this one. One of her teachers recognized her for an intelligent and frustrated student and recommended that she go to Coppin for a while. She took two years of classes at Coppin and came back to Hopkins to continue her scholarship. Last I heard she had graduated and was doing well, but had failed to be admitted into Hopkins Med-School. I wish I could tell her that Hopkins has tougher policies for female Med students and she should try another Med-school. Maybe someone already has.

So, it’s a complicated issue, but it’s at the grade school level that someone is dropping the ball - not at colleges.

5

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe these schools are open to people of all races. That is why they are called historically African-American schools. They have a high percentage of African-American students only because a lot of African-American students have chosen to attend such schools. Students of other races can also choose to attend, and in fact may qualify for minority scholarships if their race is underrepresented in the student body. Given this, I see no reason to treat underfunded historically African-American colleges any differently from other underfunded schools.

6

Pardon me for a second…

<sounds of manical laughter come from the other room.>
<15 Minutes Later>

Okay… <wipes tears out of eyes> I’m better. Sorry. :smiley:

Let me see if I can sum up the problem. Yes, it would be cool if we could just fully intergrate Jackson State University and all the others. Unfortunately, it won’t happen. Why, you may ask? Simple. The Alumni don’t want that. They want their own little college, fully funded by Federal and State money. They don’t really care if anyone but Blacks attend, really. Under the proposed settlement, the black colleges must have 10% “other race” enrollment. The loophole? That doesn’t mean they have to admit white person #1. They can fill it with 350 asians, native americans, or whatever else. It’s about power, IMO. If they intergrate, they lose their power base.

Oh, and if you think the current Ayers settlement is funny, the Original terms were downright hysterical. We’re talking, just for JSU now, turning over Mississippi Veterans Memorial Staduim (65k seating) to them as their college home field, removing the Medical School from Old Miss and turning it over to JSU, giving them brand new, fully equipped Engineering, Law and Nursing schools. I think the total would have upped JSU’s budget by nearly $180 million a year. And that was just for JSU. Fortunately, lawyers pointed out you couldn’t turn State Property over like that, the Med School would have to de-certify and re-certify, (a process which is long, and would most likely result in a denial for JSU and no med school in Mississippi at all) and that there’s no need for another Public Law school in Mississippi, as Old Miss and Mississippi College’s wern’t being taxed and Old Miss was well intergrated.

Really, instead of throwing more money into a dark pit, they should just close most of them, and fully intergrate JSU. But it won’t happen. Why? Because they don’t want equality, they want their own little playground to play in and be King of.

7

I’m going to reply to everyone’s posts in order.

**SuaSponte

Interesting.

I understand what you’re saying, but - remember, I went to a minority college - attendance at schools like this today is voluntary, not mandatory.

When I looked at the 12 classes offered by my College’s English Department, I laughed a sour laugh - Columbia offers more English classes during the Summer Session! But, I understood that the things I got from the school outweighed the loss of things I couldn’t get elsewhere. That was the decision I made.

Of course, I never demanded that the government subsidize the school to make it look more like Columbia. But isn’t that what is happening here?

december, I agree. Totally.

**VileOrb:

**

I believe I’ve answered this. Let them go wherever they want… just don’t subsidize them for no reason.

I have to go - jdimbert is calling me for dinner. I will post more later.

8

See http://64.39.30.79/guestcolumnists/vanlandingham08-16-01.htmA
Excerpt:

9

There’s no shame attached to not getting into Hopkins Med from Hopkins undergrad. Hopkins Med is one of the most selective med schools on the planet. I was a student member of the JH med school admissions committee as a senior student, and it was truly amazing to watch the process. To even be seriously considered by the Hop usually meant acceptance at many other fine med schools.

10

A very complex issue indeed.

Before I forget, I wanted to address one particular thing sdimbert said – that the state shouldn’t subsidize his alma mater to bring it up to the level of Columbia. This is very true, particularly since neither your alma mater nor Columbia are state colleges, which is not the case with the institutions in question in Mississippi.

I was having trouble with december’s link so I couldn’t read the entire article, but I’m very curious to know which HBCU the writer attended. I’m reluctant to judge an institution based on a part-time master’s program.

Saint Zero raised some interesting points. Although I don’t quite see it in the same way, I agree that the tradition of alumni involvement with HBCUs sustains them in a way that is more crucial than at most colleges. It is very difficult to convince someone who believes they had an ideal educational experience that their beloved institution is no longer important, and I think it should be difficult.

I don’t think HBCUs are any different from women’s or religious colleges, in that there is a measurable demand for these schools. If no one wanted to attend, there wouldn’t be a lawsuit in the first place. Students at women’s colleges don’t spend all of their time in women’s studies classes. Women’s studies are in fact available, and may have an added degree of academic quality because they are housed in a institution that is manifestly dedicated to the field. In addition, one might say that all subjects offered at a women’s school are presented in a way that best removes the psychological/sociological impediments to achievement faced by women (there’s no point in finding a new way of saying that since Sua presented it so concisely). You can replace “women” with “minority” in that sentence and have a good description of what goes on at an HBCU.

In addition, as has already been mentioned, you don’t have to be black to attend these schools. If a non-black student was working in the fields of say, American studies, history of labor, Southern literature, etc., these schools would be a decent option.

There are many problems faced by HBCUs, and frankly, a lot of problems they have either created for themselves, or have worsened because they were not addressed in a timely way. However, this is true of many other schools, and locking the doors is usually not seen as a viable option.

At this point in time, I don’t think I would support the formation of a brand new state college for minorities (although I would be interested in seeing a proposal for an institute housed within a larger university), but since the institution already exists, and particularly because there is still an expressed need for such a college, the state has the responsibility to keep it on par with other state schools.

11

Yes, I, too, would have liked to know the name of the institution, but the author specifically omitted it.

I have no way to judge how credible or accurate this article is, particularly with the school not identified.