Yes, you could, but that’s not why they want to kill people. I’m sure it makes them feel less bad about doing it, but they didn’t start hijacking dirigibles after we passed the 19th Amendment.
Shit, I could fart in to a strong wind in these parts, and I’d tickle the nose of a couple of hundred Christians who decry the same things that you cited. I’m just smart enough to know that there’s a difference between thinking I’m going to hell, and wanting to send me there post-haste.
And what pisses me off are people who assume that atheism means a claim that there is proof that god does not exist, as opposed to a lack of belief in a god.
And one more thing - people who want to ban behavior because God doesn’t like it, but when asked to demonstrate the existence of this god, appeal to faith. I have no problem with faith, but if you can’t prove your god, get him and his rules out of my face. (And other parts. 
)
I don’t know how to confirm it. You could read Hitchens’ book and it might be noted in the bibliography.
http://research.yale.edu/ycias/database/files/MESV3-1.pdf
This document states what I have also heard before is that the pirates wanted tribute for sailing those seas, and we went over there and smacked them down rather than enter into a corrupt system of tribute like the European powers had to deal with.
I wouldn’t be surprised if ethnocentrism played into the issue, as it was more accepted in those times than it is today. It’s the sort of thing I am willing to believe because it makes sense. We thought that the black slaves were of less value than white people, and they thought their white slaves were of less value than muslims, it’s not difficult to believe.
However, I wouldn’t use it as a way to discount 200 years of social progress. Bin Laden is a tyrant, a lot of Arab leaders are tyrants, but just as we shouldn’t judge the christian who feels he gets closer to Jesus out on the lake by Jerry Falwell, I don’t think we should judge the average person on the street in the middle-east by Osama bin-Laden.
Erek
Exactly.
What it reminds me of is when I worked in retail years ago. We had a customer who was, let’s just say, not terribly jimp. Nor well groomed. It seemed as if she didn’t even bother using conditioner on the various random patches of fur on her face. She hardly ever brushed her mandibles. And she spoke with the thickest, most ridiculous German accent you’ve ever heard. So we made fun of her physical shortcomings and accent behind her back. No, it was not mature of us at all, and I’m certainly not proud of it. But the fact is, had she not had the personality of a menopausal troll, her physical attibutes would have been easily overlooked, and we probably would have thought of her as “that nice lady.” Her extreme meanness gave us a reason to make fun of her.
Once again, behavior I’m not proud of. But not uncommon, I think. If someone repeatedly treats you badly, you’ll tend to make a big deal out of their other unrelated shortcomings.
For instance, and this is purely hypothetical, let’s suppose I lived in a poor land with a lot of resources in high demand. Let’s suppose, once again hypothetically, that some country uses extreme muscle to come in and take those resources. And then those resources are wasted on luxury items. And that the taking of those resources makes many people very wealthy, but my own lot in life is worse than ever. I (rightly or wrongly) can blame my poverty on the greedy foreigners.
It’s not too much of a stretch for me to link the use of their luxury items to any other perceived debauchery they might engage in, and see it all as one large decadence at my expense.
Had I not suffered from this decadence in any way, it’s likely that I wouldn’t give a shit.
Turn it around: Had not terrorists struck the US, how concerned about the wearing of burkas would we really be? Probably somewhat, but not as much as we are now.
It’s funny, never have I seen the religious right so concerned about the plight of women as they are now.
Just wanted to say to Max that the OP was one of the first things I’ve seen that managed to articulate my personal belief that it is important to understand what motivates the terrorists (and not because I think they ought to be coddled). Kudos to Max for a great OP.
Answering the OP directly, rather than the answers to it.
I hate it when I run into people who think all Spaniards are flamenco dancers (if female) or bullfighters (if male, and by the way the Spanish word is torero, not toreador). Mind you, I also would like to have a handy Horrid Chinese Flower Vase handy whenever I run into one of those people who call all mexicans Pancho while trying to imitate their accent. Just have a general pigeonholing peeve.
Also up to… (climbs on a table and stretches her arm as far up as it will go)… here… of people who mistake Catholicism with a block of concrete; it’s usually one carved by Mel Gibson, too. That guy makes Benny 16 look like a radical leftist.
Oh and of people who think that a Chemical Engineer is a Genetic Engineer. Wrong major altogether. Us ChEng are the ones who are supposed to invent less-polluting, more efficient ways of making stuff, not the ones who are supposed to invent ways to let you clone yourself but with slight tweaking so your clonechild doesn’t need to get Lasik like you did.
I am currently in the process of developing a strong peeve against bosses who think all subordinates must be told to “work hard”, “be proactive” and “never be hand over hand waiting for instructions”. I’m part of a 4-people team of consultants, we didn’t know each other beforehand, the boss was the last one to arrive and, you know, we did a lot of proactive work before we even knew her name.
Good for you, c k. Very restrained. I’d have told the ignorant cunt to go fuck himself.
Well, what a nice surprise this is! Thank you for your gracious comments. I would never have imagined in a million years that you either enjoyed my posts or that you might even think highly of me. Apart from the fun that is elucidator and the good-heartedness and nobility that is Zoe, I can’t honestly say that I enjoy the posts of any of my opponents…and to me this speaks more highly of you than it does of me. It’s funny how often people I tangle with here turn out to be people I like a lot in other forums, and more than once it has given me pause about getting into arguments here. Sometimes I think I should just stay out of the Pit and enjoy people for the good persons they are in reality rather than get into the “you’re an idiot”/“no, you’re an idiot” type of discussions that take place here.
Indeed. To me, the things I see, say and believe are as obvious as the nose on my face. This makes it difficult for me to see how my opponents here can see things the way they do.
I guess that’s one of the beneficial aspects of Doperdom…at least on occasion we can see that people might honestly feel differently than we do yet still be good people.
Thank you. I will remember that.
This is why I take pains to use the term “Muslim* extremists*.” Unfortunately, in the heat of battle it seems that the distinction gets lost and I’m perceived as painting all Muslims with the same broad brush. I know there are a great many good people who are Muslims. But they aren’t the ones causing the problems, and it’s the ones who are causing the problems that I speak of when I make my comments.
Regards,
SA
But then, she’s classy and you aren’t.
Kiss my arse, mate.
I’m not going to debate.
First: Because I don’t feel like it, second: Because I know overly PC people will never change their minds.
Thanks calm kiwi.
Tolerance is a word that was associated with the Dutch. Suddenly, when not accepting efforts to get a religion stuffed in our throat, we’re not tolerant anymore?
We still welcome every culture, every nationality in our country.
We’re not too bad.
We just like our free speech.
That was in Belgium. Different country.
But there are maniacs in the Netherlands too. Thing is: They don’t murder in the name of Allah.
[or God, for that matter. I’m an atheist too]
Originally quoted by Max the Vool
Perhaps you missed it, but in previous threads I’ve said I worked [as a volunteer] in a women shelter.
I’ve met plenty of muslim women who were nice.
There’s just one thing. Ask any muslim. [there are muslims on this board]
They are muslim first.
Then they are a mother, or a student, or a politician, etc. Or a Moroccan, Turk [never a Dutch, they don’t want to be Dutch. Even when born here] etc.
But whatever they are, they are Muslim first.
And there lies the problem with “painting all muslims with the same brush”.
Muslims don’t want a less bloodthirsty Quoran, even if they are nice ‘moderate’ muslims.
They say the Arabic Koran is the only true one and should be obeyed at all times.
We’re trying to get at least the Imams some notion of the Netherlands’ culture [and it’s language], but that isn’t what they want.
They don’t want to integrate because the Netherlands is pernicious, like the rest of the ‘Western world’
The Dutch are kafirs, infidel dogs and Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a black ape.
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/lubm/ch1top1.html
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/newssummary/s_377638.html
About being Politically Correct:
“The emancipation of women, more than any other single issue, is the touchstone of difference between modernization and Westernization,” writes Bernard Lewis, the Middle Eastern scholar, in his book, “What Went Wrong.” He continues: “The emancipation is Westernization; for both traditional conservatives and radical fundamentalists it is neither necessary nor useful, but noxious, a betrayal of true Islamic values.” As a result, even where many Muslim women enjoy liberation misogynist practices continue, and even follow fundamentalist Muslim emigrants to Europe, particularly to Germany and the Netherlands.
Muslim men, who feel their masculinity threatened when women gain equal political, economic and social status under the law, combine contempt for women with contempt for Western values. Women who have worn Western dress for years, or who yearn to do so, feel renewed pressure today to put on the abaya, the burka, the chador, the headscarf or the veil.
Turkish women who have thrown off their chadors in Germany and gone secular in dress and dating habits have paid the full price for their rebellion. In recent months at least six Muslim women have been murdered in “honor killings”; a woman’s organization documents more than 40 honor killings in less than a decade. Their killers have been brothers, husbands and fathers, and are generally revered as heroes in their insulated communities.
Alice Schwarzer, “the Betty Friedan of Berlin,” blames the misanthropic and misogynistic multiculturalism that averts its eyes from the Muslim oppression of women in Germany. “Every denunciation of this abuse is branded as racism,” she tells der Spiegel newsmagazine. A woman who stumbles beneath a mountain of cloth and is forced into an arranged marriage is a “scandal” that Germans and others in the rest of the world refuse to stand up against: “After the Nazis condemned everything foreign, the children now want to love everything foreign, with their eyes closed tightly.”
Feminists in the United States, eager to blame fundamentalist Christians for everything, are reluctant to criticize fundamentalist Muslims for anything. But a cursory scan of the Internet finds several sites beginning to expose the way Muslim men both here and abroad get a politically correct pass in the name of multicultural tolerance. When all cultures are considered equal it’s difficult to criticize culturally protected traditions, even if those traditions brutalize women
I’m as PC as the next sucker, but I’ll draw the line at violence. Whether the violence is directed towards women, or towards critics of the Islam.
This
http://www.spunk.nl/articles/view_article.asp?id=1127989342218 girl [a moslima herself] was writing only yesterday in a newspaper about the new muslim generation. [Their parents came originally [about 40 years ago] from the Moroccan Rif mountains to the Netherlands].
Next day she was called a whore and was told: “We’ll get you and kill you”.
She stopped writing.
This is what I object to, do you understand?
This is NOT an incident. This is our daily life.
From a Denmark site:
http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/jjokunen/political_correctness_and_islam.htm
Nearly a hundred and fifty years ago, John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) put his pen to paper to praise freedom. His timeless work, On Liberty (1869), contains also a compelling dissertation opposing the suppression of any ideas [33].
Mill’s main arguments can be summarized as follows:
As I said: I’m not going into a debate.
If you want more info, just google for the Netherlands and islam.
I’ll do my [political] best to make things better in my country and I’ll keep doing that until I die.
Bye, for now.
You’d better take that up with Bizet’s librettist. 
And JFK reported directly to the Vatican!
This is the same old shit, repackaged for a new millennium.
The fact that you believe that there were “tens of thousands” of terrorists in the first place show the astounding level of ignorance crammed into your tiny little head.
I think you might actually be more ignorant that duffer, which I didn’t think humanly possible.
Let me guess - if they’re killed by an American bomb or bullet they’re a “terrorist”? You’re the living embodiment of a particular Benny Hill sketch - except he was joking.
-Joe
Okay, for the sake of the logic-impaired, perhaps I should have said “terrorists and terrorist sympathizers.”
Oh, and I suppose I shouldn’t forget to point out that I was speaking of Afghanistan as well as Iraq, not to mention the various and sundry…ah, never mind…
Boy, you try for a little brevity around here, but no…some nitpicking schmuck thinks he sees some little loophole that will allow him to throw around the “I” word, and…
:rolleyes:
Oh look, you’re moving the goalposts. There’s a fucking shock.
So, what makes a terrorist sympathizer?
The Spaniards cleared out of Iraq…are they sympathizers? If so, will you do your little happy dance the next time a couple hundred people get blown to pieces in their subways?
Abdul, living next to Achmed the terrorist…is he a sympathizer? What if he has no idea about Achmed? What if he suspects Achmed of…something, but doesn’t really know for sure? What if he does know, goes to the authorities, and still ends up getting killed when a bomb blows Achmed’s house away?
Certainly the House of Saud is sympathetic to terrorists. So is a good chunk of Pakistan. Bombs away, right? There’s terrorists in Ireland, too. And many sympathizers there, too. And, actually, here, too. I had an Irish-American friend who would regularly donate money to the IRA. Bombs away, right?
Of course, the USA helps prop up the Saud…so that makes the USA and her citizens terrorist sympathizers, too, correct?
Because then “the terrorists” are actually killing “terrorist sympathizers” every time they set off a bomb in Iraq. I guess it’s zero-sum after all.
Or, you could stop being a hypocrite with his head up his ass (fat chance I know) and accept that you don’t give a fuck about “terrorists”, women’s rights, and any of that other shit.
But you won’t. Because that would force you to face your complete intellectual bankruptcy. Why do that when you can happily celebrate the killing a “terrorist” and point out that the unfortunates who got blown up next to him were “terrorist sympathizers”.
-Joe
Which has what to do with what?
Yeah, that’s it. Randomly making up numbers is ‘trying for a little brevity’. That or you’re an idiot. Going by posting history I can take a pretty good guess.
-Joe, soon to launch into a discussion of the “hundreds” of people killed in World War II
Gum Yeah, in the enlightened Netherlands where your reactionary populace suddenly swung hard right in order to halt immigration, but the side effect was that Amsterdam one of the only places on the planet with a sane drug policy started to shut down it’s cafes, so now there are about half as many as there were before. Legitimate businesses shut down because of something completely unrelated.
I can see what drives terrorists. I am tired of seeing my friends terrified of police. I am sick of my friends being thrown through plate glass windows at protests. I am tired of seeing hippies arrested because they are growing pot. I am tired of being looked at like an over-privileged white person by black people on the street. I am sick of having a ridiculously unfair judicial system that still practices slavery on lower class ethnicities and calls it “Drug policy”.
I can totally understand the desire to kill. Part of me wants to start capping state level bureaucrats who support the drug war, because our fat overfed populace can’t get it through their fucking skull that no matter how aesthetically offended they may be by a junkie that it’s no reason to be locking millions of people up and fucking up their entire lives over it. Who don’t understand what the word freedom means but it’s every other fucking word out of their mouth. I am tired of hearing the word patriotism perverted by people who give a fuck whether or not the flag is burned but won’t stop wiping their feet on the constitution.
The only thing that keeps me from terrorism is that I feel I have alternatives. I have political connections, and I know wealthy people. I have a chance of becoming wealthy myself, and gaining power through the system. If I didn’t, I might be out in the desert honing my shooting skills.
America lies to itself and the world, claiming it’s a government by the people and for the people but it’s not at all, unless you mean the rich people. Idiots may scoff at this idea, but they’ll scoff only as long as America’s Next Top Model isn’t on. People’s idea of freedom is the ability to drive a Hummer H2, as long as they get to do that, fuck everyone else. Besides those niggers and ragheads really aren’t as valuable as I am right? I know a lot of people who are itching to pick up a gun and start shooting politicians. It’s not about being politically correct. It’s about being tired of mindless oppression at the hands of the fattened pigs that live in the western nations.
As if somehow we’re better because women are allowed to go to work in a cubicle for 50 hours a week without a burka. Please. Not only that, but I come on here, and I see a bunch of fucking idiots blaming religion for the world’s problems as though saying that means fucking anything at all. Yet you’ll watch these dumbasses constantly congratulate each other for being the smartest people in the world.
Erek
Hmm…this is supposed to be an intelligent board, and yet I have to define a terrorist sypathizer? Oh, well…
I would say a terrorist sympathizer is one who, while not directly engaged in terrorist training or activity, joins up with and/or aids terrorists in attacks and/or fighting against terrorist enemies.
Capiche?
:: walks away wondering if Merijeek is going to demand to know what the meaning of is, is ::
I don’t think he needs you to define terrorist sympathizer. I think he’s trying to say you’re a dumbass with a really lame definition of one.
I have a lot of sympathy for terrorists. If people were bulldozing my house, and trying to steal my oil fields, I’d blow them up too.
Erek
My response to that is “1000 years ago? Fucking get over it!”
Using that “logic”, there ought to be a lot of angry descendants of Roman Empire slaves attacking Italy right now. 1000? so how about 2000? :rolleyes: