Mods: What do you see in december?

The BBQ Pit
21

Agreed, much as december drives me up the wall with his stunningly poor critical analytical skills and – I rather like the turn of phrase-- dog ate my homework citation style, he’s not a bad guy.

Oh come now, if that’s the standard… good lord even Wildest Bill met that.

All in all, in many ways Pjen is far, far worse in re ideological baiting, and for blindered denseness Stoid rather matches him.

Besides, for those on the Left on this board --as well as for those of us who merely consider ourselves empirically oriented centrists-- december is just about the easiest poster to argue against. You can count on him painting himself into some ludicrous corner which has no small entertainment value. Plus he appears to have a sense of humor about it all.

Just impossibly ill-equipped to engage in logical argumentation.

22

Sit down, Duck Duck Goose, and I’ll tell you how Sumerian Astronomy proves the True Meaning of Omicron Phi…

23

Phi upon you!

Seriously, he may not be the best poster around, but that’s not reason to dump him.

24

I kinda like the guy…

25

Really? He’s never been a jerk? Even in the linked thread, in which several accuse him of going too far this time? Or in all the other cases in which he has shown his “debating” style to be simply baiting? Puhleeze.

Another puhleeze to those of you who suggest that I, and others, only find him to be a detraction from the board simply because of our political orientation. 'Tis a pity you cannot rise above your own partisanship enough to realize there are greater issues of intellectual honesty involved here.

While I’m handing out the puhleezes, here’s one for those of you who find him entertaining. Wildest Bill was, too, but he still got banned, as have several other onetime members for what seemed to me to be far less jerkiness.

And one for those who have taken me to task for not condemning stoid for her totally-partisan views, making her posts read just like Democratic Underground. You guys don’t get the issue either, or perhaps I’ve not been clear enough. I don’t think any of you can find a post of hers that was intended simply as bait, trying simply to get some pleasure out of simply getting an emotional response, rather than basically venting. She never, that I know of, has pretended otherwise or has failed to acknowledge countervailing arguments, when they have been made. I don’t think you can seriously give december the benefit of that doubt - can any of you read the linked OP, for example, and seriously ascribe good faith to it? I won’t comment on pjen, because seriously, I haven’t read much of his work - but I’ll go along with those of you who have.

Seriously, mods, and I’ll rephrase these questions generally enough that you can reply in public:

Is or is not Great Debates intended for actual debating, or are you satisfied to have it be a poor parody of the Monty Python Argument Clinic (“No, it’s not!”) ? Debate is more than just the hurling of opinions at one another, and demonizing those who disagree, isn’t it? Believe it or not, many of us read this board for enlightenment, not simply entertainment, although some of you replying to this thread are satisfied with that. This board is advertised to be about fighting ignorance, not coddling it, isn’t it?

Do you or do you not think that there is a Gresham’s Law of debate, in which repeated bad arguments made in bad faith drive out the good ones? In my own experience, there is - if people who are determined not to contribute to a board’s goals are allowed free reign, the people who do wish to contribute get disgusted and go elsewhere, leaving the jerks in dominance. Is that what you want? Wouldn’t Cecil be rolling over in his grave if he were still alive?

Just to summarize: Baiting is a form of trolling. december is a baiter. Discuss.

26

See, but It seems to me that December isn’t a baiter or a troll. He’s an elderly man, not too sophisticated at forming a coherent argument. He posts the threads he does because he honestly thinks he’s posing a debate, not setting up a shitstorm.

I also think that this thread is more of a troll than any of December’s posts. This is an invitation to a dogpile, and to the credit of many, people are refusing to play.

27

I apologize for my earlier post. I stand corrected.

28

I was gonna link the same thread gobear

however, since I’m the person who invoked ‘stoid’, let me clarify my comment.

Stoid got called out for posting lot’s o threads, during the election crisis, that were pretty tangental to each other, ( a bit of overkill), and were based on very preliminary reports. **december ** does things similar. So does pjen and the method is very similar.

in all 3 cases, generally, the framework for the ‘debate’ is something along the lines of ‘here, don’t you think this is right’? while that in and of itself may not reach the heights of idolitry, to do it successively, and at each hint of a potential support, - well all three named have done it.
Elvis I calls 'em the way I sees em. I’ve supported you when I thought you were being wrongfully trashed, and (with the exception of the latest monstrosity), same with december.

I’ve posted less than complimentary things quite often in december’s case (recently suggested that we all collectively disallow him from reading op/ed pieces for example). So, it’s not like I’m a fan of his.

Now, his latest travesty I think does, if not actually reach the pinnicle of baiting/trollery, certainly gives it a big strong kiss. with tongue.

29

You know that thread really is a piece of shit. As I said there, there was a real point to be made, but the set up and subsequent posting is frankly offensive.

30

Gobear, I admit to being 59 years old and a grandfather.

Regarding my latest thread:

The leader of a predominantly Muslim nation, speaking at an Islamic conference, made an interesting and provocative statement. Some posters here disagree with Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad’s POV. That seems to make it a debate.

31

Your packaging December made it other than that.

First, your title rather distorted MM’s comments.

Second, your juxtaposition with an inaccurate Nobel prize list and implied conclusions thereof further took what might have been an interesting debate and brought it right up to the edges of baiting and near-bigotry.

Let me suggest that your current feelings, understandable as they are, in re the ME situation – see e.g. your recent comment re threat to Israel-- lead to an offensive framing of an otherwise potentially interesting topic. I am certain that you did not intend that, but that’s how it came out.

32

Have to agree with gobear. december’s latest effort puts the cap on it. This isn’t debating, this is throwing an inflammatory quotation at the board and saying “There! What do you think about that then?”.

Then coming back the next day to repeat the process. It isn’t hard to find quotations on the net that would cause outrage on SDMB.

If this isn’t trolling, it’s perilously close.

33

He’s bloody clever in one respect: playing the rules of the board so close to the knuckle, but avoiding a ban. One wonders if he’s actually a liberal on covert ops, illustrating beautifully the fallacies of the blind conservative.

34

It’s disgusting. I was offended by the one about Europe supporting suicide bombers. This one was just a more coherant version of Wildest Bill.

Disengenous (sp?) is the perfect word to describe december. He always posts inflammatory threads and when called on it plays dumb.

35

december, a bit of friendly advice here. Please stop posting threads of the following type:

Is Group X responsible for Very Bad Thing Y?

Such threads are inherently offensive to the individual members of Group X who are not personally responsible for Very Bad Thing Y, and who in fact may be doing their damnedest to bring about Very Good Thing Indeed Z. It is also offensive to those of us who happen to think that people should be treated as individuals first and group members second.

Your threads display–perhaps unintentionally, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt–a persistent willingness to label entire groups of people without acknowledging the shades of black, white, and grey that inevitably exist within those groups. That approach may work just fine in your profession, but it is inappropriate to apply it to politics and other matters of individual conscience.

36

Actually my title virtually quoted MM. However, in retrospect I regret not putting into the title that I was quoting a Muslim Prime Minister. I also regret bringing in the Nobel Prize business.

Both those points had the effect of confusing the issue, and, as Collounbury points out, led to an offensive framing of the issue I apologize for the way I posed the title and OP.

37

No december, your title did not capture Mahathir’s comments, it rather distorted them.

38

december, I don’t see you being overly inflammatory or trollish. Rather, I see you attempting to learn through debate, and I think you are learning. If this is one of the ways you enlighten yourself, I’m willing to put up with it. Plus, you have a lot of balls, which should count for something.

But I’m curious to know what impels you to continually take in information in this somewhat confrontational manner. I don’t want to know any further details about your personal life, but maybe you could take this nasty thread and use it to enlighten us a little bit.

When you start a thread, how are you approaching it? Do you consider it to be a form of a controversial question, and you choose to defend one point of view? Or do you consider it to be part of your own point of view, and dare it to be challenged? Or is it something else?

I’m not trying to draw you out or bait you or anything like that. I just think that this might be an opportune time to sort of explain where you’re coming from, so that we may better understand you. Make the proverbial omelette out of the egging, if you will.

39

Gotta love the Wildest Bill parody. You’ve really caught that contrition quality perfectly.

40

Sofa King,
I think that was a great post , asking December politely to explain himself. It was a nice break from the “Bash December” posts that have become fashionable lately.

Personally, I like December. I don’t agree with his views most of the time but I find him to be polite, sincere, and usually apologetic when he feels he has wrongly presented himself. He believes what he believes and has every right to express those views here, IMHO. If he didn’t believe what he was saying but just wanted to piss pepole off for no reason other than his own enjoyment, I would consider that trolling. But that accusation doesn’t stand up because he is consistent with what he believes, even when ridiculed. That does take balls, as someone else noted. Hey, I’m all for people pointing out why they think he wrong. That is a debate. But this constant pile-on is getting old.